opatience: i'm a christian (and a jew, and that's a long story). anyway, biblically speaking "killing" is not wrong. "murder" is.

biblically, there is a time for everything -- war, peace, sowing, reaping, being born, dying. taken all together, it's my belief that "killing" has its own time as well.

in the torah/old testament, god HELPS his people (the jews) defeat their enemies and crush them on the battlefield -- in some pretty graphic ways.

in the christian bible/new testament, christ's way was considerably different. instead of the old eye for an eye, instead of sacrificing animals, the idea is that if someone strikes you, you are to "turn to him also the other cheek."

in the OT, things were different. killing had its time, its purpose, its reason for being. this was okay with god (and in some cases, it was commanded by him). in the NT, however, even the idea of doing harm to another was a sin.

that said, there's not a christian in the world who can or has or will ever live up to the ideals of christ. the problem is, there are some who realize this and do their best to learn from christ's examples, and there are those who seem to hold themselves above -- or at least apart from -- all of that.

there are some christians who are the very height of hypocritical. killing's "okay" if it's war, because "that's just different." (meaning "it's okay, because i personally think it is"). and besides, that's not MURDER (which is a sin). however, many of those same christians are 100% in support of capital punishment -- even thought that IS a form of murder: it is intentionally taking the life of a human being when that human being does not present a direct threat. it's killing, in other words, without being necessary to save one's own life; it's killing OUTSIDE of self-defense. i call that murder -- but then, i also have no personal problem with the death penalty in the USA for the most part. however, there are christians who will rail about the "sanctity of ALL life" (meaning only the unborn) but who would gladly flip the switch to kill someone on death row.

so this "sanctity of life" is, to some christians, merely a matter of picking and choosing based on PERSONAL opinion -- not based on anything god or christ ever ordained.

Call on God, but row away from the rocks

RICKAMAVEN,
Your assumptions are wrong on all three counts. Married. Three children. Age 42.

As far as the abortion issue goes, that's another forum thread. The original discussion is about stem cell research.

To the rest of you,

Stem cells from miscarriages, fine with me. Stem cells from abortions, no, because people -being what they are - would decide to pay women to have abortions for the purpose of obtaining stem cells, and some women would accept the offer, just as some women are willing to sell their babies to the highest bidding couple. Stem cells from embryos created solely for the purpose of producing stem cells, no, because that is no different than using a full-term baby for transplant parts. I know, I know, I'm going to hear from some of you that couples are already having second or third children for bone marrow transplants for siblings with cancer. My response is that I don't know how to handle the issue. The bone marrow transplant won't kill the child, but I don't have an answer.

Back to RICKAMAVEN,
In the future please try to avoid lumping Christians into a giant pool of backward thinking political neanderthals. Some Christians want to go back to the 50s. The 1750s, that is. However, most of us like the 21st century just fine. Some Christians want the United States run as a theocracy. However, most of us want only want the rights granted in the Constitution. No more, no less.

Cavallo,
I apologize if it seemed I lumped all Christians in one package, as with any group of people, there are those who choose the extreme.
In all of history, as you showed, there have been alot of things that were done that were questionable, in the name of Christianity. Right or wrong, that is not for me to decide, but for one to claim high morals solely on the basis of chrisitianity is reaching a bit.
I know some people with very high morals and they are not christians. Then I know some devout christians who's morals are very questionable.

As for the research, to try and stay on track, the research needs to be there. Otherwise, we, as a species are in trouble.

Cigarick,
"By the way, you can change your religious beliefs at any time, but you cannot change your race. Sheesh. "

Ok, try changing your religious beliefs, right now --- just for 15 minutes, then you can change back... well? Any success?

We do not "choose" our beliefs, no matter what we tell ourselves.

coda,
Actually, alot of folks change their religions.
Look at this person accused of treason. He changed his beliefs.

0patience,
I'm not suggesting that beliefs do not change, only that we do not "choose" them. Beliefs are an undeniable result of what we have experienced and our congitive processes.

My beliefs have changed tremendously since childhood... but I didn't choose the changes, only accepted them.

What we _do_ choose is how to express our beliefs (religious sect, political party, posting to cbid, etc).

00camper

my apoligize for any implication that all christians have the same values. i am fixated on the abortion issue that is constantly being discussed in the media and the smug attitude of the talking heads, or as al franken calls them, lying liars and the liars who tell them.

i never resent anyone i talk to that ends the conversation with "have a blessed day" and i admired
kurt warner thanking his personal saviour, jesus, for helping him win the super bowl a few years ago.

it is not chrisianity and christians that cause me any concern, after all there have been monks that have set themselves on fire, and harikari to "save face" is pretty much out there.

i think you have given me the epiphany about what is so distasteful to me about "christians", i think my only problem with the relegion is the abortion issue. the several things that some of the above posters have mentioned ie against abortion, for capital punnishment, are peripheral to me.

toby and i never personally faced a decision about abortion. i believe my mother had a d and c(abortion) when she was in her late 40's and i think that was the correct choice for her.

but i have problems with the christian idea of life beginning at the moment of conception. there was life before that.

i am also put off by the "i am a christian and therefore i have all the answers for the rest of the
world, the non-christians, and they must listen."
quales wife said "they" will never get into heaven unless they believe."

i don't go into churches and interrupt services and i don't like the insistance that christians
interrupt class rooms in order to have services there. but the christian movement doesn't agree
with me. ok, but you can't come into a building a paid for in part and have prayer meetings and i won't put on a musicle comedy in your church that you partily paid for.

coda,
I cannot argue with that. 😉

Thank you, RICKAMAVEN. You just made my day!

I feel im smart enough to not believe in some bullcrap religion but not ignorant not to believe that there is something tending to the light at the end of the tunnel.

The whole concept of these stone buildings is to control the masses, to brainwash and gain power over the people. Sure there is a man in the sky that knows everything you do, and sure there are 10 laws next to a burning bush, that makes the masses good little girls and boys. How ignorant of these churches to speak in the name of a higher power, it pisses me off.

I have no respect for any religion, they are all doomed.


I can only think that anyone that believes in a god with a (name) is a total fool or a brainwashed individual that should not have a driver’s license nor own a gun.

But they are degrees of ignorance, take these jerk offs with towels on there heads and believe this 75 virgin crap.

I find all religions total bullcrap, nobody knows who’s tending to the light, oh but the bible says. I was taught to, for GOD’S sake man, think for yourself.

But the bible says

Nobody knows who or what is tending the light.

But the bible says…

Now that’s something you don’t read everyday. I attacked every religious group and the atheists too.

Ahhahaha SOCK IT TO ME

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing --Socrates

AAaarghhh!! Cough, cough -- gag... -- Socrates

"Ok, try changing your religious beliefs, right now---just for 15 minutes, then you can change back... well? Any success?
"We do not "choose" our beliefs, no matter what we tell ourselves."

I was born a Catholic, and became a Lutheran around age 12. This was part of my 'leaf on a stream' phase. I later became a Buddhist, and finally an atheist. These I chose.

I'd call that very successful.

Cigarick

the quest for a belief system can be a life long search. search on and good luck.

65gtoman

i don't fit any of your catagories, so i am not attacked.

turn out the light when you get there before it gets crowded.

The light at the end of the tunnel has been temporarily shut off due to budget constraints.

Cigarick,
"I was born a Catholic, and became a Lutheran around age 12. This was part of my 'leaf on a stream' phase. I later became a Buddhist, and finally an atheist. These I chose."

How about that --- I did the same thing (but skipping the Lutheran and Buddhist steps, instead having sort of a deist phase).

With respect, I'm pretty sure that you didn't wake up one morning and say "I think I'll try non-belief in god". Rather, you came to believe that based on your experiences and your personal conclusions. You may have awakened one morning and suddenly realized, and accepted, it --- but that's not "choosing" atheism.

Let's suppose that I manage to convince you once again, in this post, that there is a god. You'll reply, "damn, coda, you're right, there is a god!" Well, I'm sorry, you did not just now choose belief in god, it was a conclusion you reached and couldn't avoid. Your statement would indicate acceptance and public admittance, not the choice between beliefs. The belief "happened" (for lack of a better word) to you and there was nothing you could do about it.

We've never chosen our beliefs. We do choose methods of expressing those beliefs. We also choose labels, like "atheist" and "Lutheran". Beliefs and actions are two different things.

The fact that no one has taken and passed the 15-minute belief test proves my point.

The only reason I'm going on about it is that once we realize this, it's easier to understand, and discuss, opposing views. We might consider someone an idiot for having those views, but the fact is he can't help it.

coda: okay, i'll bite! 🙂 i love a good debate. 🙂

here's my take -- i'm with you to a point. i do think that our BELIEFS are the results of our experiences *much of the time* -- but not ALWAYS.

i do think that the WAY we express our beliefs IS a choice. example: "i believe in jesus because i just do; i'll CHOOSE to EXPRESS that belief as a lutheran -- or catholic, or episcopalian, or baptist, etc." the belief in jesus was most likely not specifically chosen, but rather integrated over time. the choice of denomination (or, as i call it, "franchise") IS chosen, though.

now then. i think we're square on up to that point, yeah?

here's where my opinion splits off: i think that there are beliefs that we hold onto DESPITE given proof to the contrary. those beliefs ARE deliberately chosen. once you are presented with options, and once those options meet certain criteria for being credible and believable, then people DO CHOOSE which one(s) they will hold onto and which they will reject.

an example: oh, let's go wide and say racism. i was brought up to believe that black folks were lazy, stupid, inferior and immoral in various ways -- they were all thieves, they were all liars, etc.

now the fact that i held those beliefs up until, say, my mid-teens was NOT a matter of my choice. that's what i grew up hearing. if a black person was arrested, there was someone around to say "see? there's more proof. they're all criminals!" my contact with people of color was limited; the only things ever pointed out to me as a child were those things that "proved" the stereotypical talk.

in my young adulthood, for the first time, i interacted with blacks in "neutral territory" so to speak. where i had grown up with a lot of black-white violence, now i'm in a work place where the guy next to me doing the same job as me is black. he's not lazy. he's not stupid. he's not stealing anything. he's not a slacker. whoa... suddenly all of my "beliefs" are challenged.

and at THAT point i DO have a choice. i can go on believing what i was TAUGHT to believe -- despite the fact that i have direct evidence to the contrary -- or i can say "okay. so obviously what i believed before was wrong" and CHOOSE to change my beliefs.

now then -- i can see how you might say in that situation, "well, you didn't choose it; you just got more experience and ACCEPTED it."

but i've evidence that people in such situations do NOT accept what the new experience tells them. not everyone in my shoes WOULD say "okay, that old belief was erroneous; i have new information now, and as i accept that, my belief changes."

there are people who quite willfully hold onto the previous belief DESPITE evidence to the contrary. they will find some way to justify holding onto the old belief ("well, that's how i was raised, and it was good enough for my pappy so it's good enough for me" for instance).

so while i agree with you, it's just up to the point where i have seen people make deliberate choices about what to accept or reject.

-sicilian tony