As I have said before... God knows the purity of Mel's heart. If he did this for genuine reasons of faith and spreading the word of God, then good on him. If he was motivated by profit, God knows this and he will be answering for it.

yeah, you're right on, shawn. as ms. billie holiday sang, "ain't nobody's business..." 🙂

sometimes i like to debate something like this -- the story in my local paper's what kicked it off; i was just thinking, "wonder what those cbid guys would say about this?" 🙂

cavallo, your "martyr" reply smacks of Kerry's phantom foreign leaders ploy: we'll just have to take your word for it that they exist 😉 When you quote someone to give your views credence, they should be verifiable.

And another thing: in your 3/17/03 1:11pm post you state that you "don't care what he does with his money, personally." Then you continue several paragraphs convincing me that you do, in fact, care- a lot.

In your 11/18/03 reply to MACS(SW) you quote Billie Holiday, "ain't nobody's business," having just written 8 paragraphs 30 minutes earlier making it your business. So which is it? Are you provocateur or casual observer?

Don't call me lazy.

I've come to find that this joint is a serious place to debate. I think our brother cavallo was just sparkin' another.

Mel Gibson made the movie as an evangelical tool, not to make money. However; what he does with his money is his business. All he is mandated to do is tithe 10% back to the Lord, and this does not necesarily mean back to a church. This means towards somethihg designed to further the Kingdom of God, which could become another religious movie.

Do I think he exploited Christian Churches, no. I truly believe that he made the movie for the purpose stated above and has succeeded tremendously. I'm not sure if many of you are church goers, but this movie has sparked so much interest that there are now study guides produced to further explore the Passion. They do cost around $6.50, but that is very cheap compared to other small group study guides. Small study groups are popping up all over the United States specifically designed to take a deeper look into the movie, it's theme, and the passages in the Bible that it was derived from.

By the way, I disagree with you Cavello. Most of the film is biblically correct. There are a few parts of he movie that are inaccurrate such as Satan at his scourging and Mary seeing Satan, but the vast theme is right on. How do I know? I am married to a Pastor, and I would put her biblical knowledge up against anyone here on the board. I am also close friend swith numerous pastors of various faiths and all have agreed on this.

Matt

thanks, shawn, for giving me the benefit of the doubt. speaks very highly of your lack of being judgmental.

lazygardner: did i call you lazy? if so it was to shorten your handle, and no offense was meant.

sorry that i can't provide citations for you from conversations i've had. you're always free to believe anecdotal evidence. i offer it as such -- nothing more or less -- in answer to your direct question to me on where i'd heard him spoken of as a "martyr."

you know, i wish that life was so black and white, but it's not. what i had was an opinion reached by PROCESS. and that process went like this:

1. read the article in the local paper, and it piqued my interest. the REPORTER was the one taking the rather accusatory stance -- don't shoot the messenger. 🙂 in all honesty, i was curious about what OTHERS made of this article -- pro OR con -- and that's the sole reason i had for posting it. well, that and i did think that it would bring out interesting thoughts from a group of folks whose opinions i tend to enjoy reading.

2. i thought that the points raised in the article were valid questions -- especially after talking to evangelical christians who cannot seem to spend enough money on mr. gibson's product, be it movie tickets, "official TPOTC" jesus nail necklaces, t-shirts, etc. these are not wealthy people, either, but they were TOUCHED BY MEL GIBSON'S PERSONAL PRESENTATION, and they do not feel exploited; they want to "help that poor man who gave his all" to make the movie.

i feel bad for such folks who send money to televangelists, too, and that's kind of the mindset i was developing about this -- it could be construed as being just like the televangelism "racket."

3. i felt a good dose of (self)righteous indignation at the thought of this multimillionaire just raking in the moolah by selling jesus. not "spreading the gospel" but literally SELLING JESUS.

4. i wondered what message all of the "official TPOTC" MERCHANDISE was sending out -- about the messiah, who was absolutely NOT a proponent of materialism by any stretch of the imagination.

5. after getting over my (self)righteous indignation, i realized that i was getting into a judgmental mindset -- and that is likewise not a christian attribute and is something i work to avoid. alas, sometimes i can only say "it's not for me to say" after i realize that i AM judging when it's NOT my place to do so.

so, yes, there was a "phase" if you will where i got into a judgmental place. i believe it was shawn's post that reminded me, though, that the whole thing is between mel and god, not between me and mel and god.

if you'd like me to confess my sin, then there you go. 🙂

hoagie, no disrespect to your wife, but i would be happy to debate her or any other pastor. i'm confident that the playing field would be level all around.

Cavallo- "charlie: agreed, but jessie jackson isn't selling jesus."

And that will also be between the Reverend Jackson and God!

MACS(SW)- "I've come to find that this joint is a serious place to debate. I think our brother cavallo was just sparkin' another."

Senior, I told you the Misc board was were to have serious fun!

Cdub: DOH! now i've gotta have another sinful moment and cut loose with a judgmental indulgence and say that i don't think the word "reverend" ever did SOOOO not belong before a man's name as with jesse jackson. 😛

*ponders* now was that a SIN sin, or was that just a snarky comment? *contemplates*

It doesn't belong in front of Al Sharpton either. Both of those guys are jacka$$es. They need to talk to their brother from Oklahoma J.C. Watts. Now THAT is a man who calls it like he sees it.

Cavallo, how much "exactly" and to which charities do you give? And why? Hummm? Oh sorry? Is that a personal question? Ahhh, so then, you get my point... See I didn't even have to make it, I just had to ask a question.

robby: i've confessed my sin, brother. care to forgive me or pass on that?

but for your information, i see no harm in asking the question. right now i give $3 a month (10% of my income at the moment) to Good Shepherd ministries -- a non-denom soup kitchen kind of deal here.

i get an allowance from our household budget of $30 per month -- for six months prior to that it was $0.00, but we've slimmed down our expenses so that my wife and i each get an "allowance" for personal expenses -- that includes cigars, postage to send them to others, and any bandages or extra meds i might need (regular meds are in the household budget, and that's an out of pocket expense of around $600/mo).

when social security is done playing red tape (it's been 1 year and 3 months now), i will most certainly be raising that amount proportional to the $804 i hope to get monthly. at that time, i will look for other local charities to support. right now my measly $3 doesn't mean much, but the folks at Good Shepherd are glad to take in any amount.

if you want to go back to when i was working, i'll be glad to dig out the tax forms and provide a list for you, but for now i'll stick with the present.

heh, that's pretty decent of you, I didn't really expect a list. But you got my point, as I read further down the thread, I saw your points as well. I'm getting ready to start paying child support for the next 17 years... 2,000+ a month... That's my "charity" and they're well compensated.

p.s. -- robby, i didn't ask how much mel gibson gave to charity. i posted an article that asked the question about making huge profits from a movie about jesus christ.

aside from the movie, mr. gibson is making money selling replica "fashion accessories" of the nails that crucified christ -- for around $18 per "fashion accessory."

i WILL firmly state that i am SICKENED by that -- but it has NOTHING to do with what gibson does or doesn't do with his money or how much he makes from the movie itself.

i AM disturbed that a multi-millionaire (or anyone for that matter) would be marketing "official TPOTC jesus nail necklaces," though, and i do not see it as a sin for someone to be angry about that -- i take the example for that anger from christ.

i did admit that it was sinful of me to nose around in what gibson does with his film profits -- as shawn pointed out (and rightly so) that's between gibson and god. i agree, and i confessed to my sin and have since put gibson's profits and/or what he does with them out of my mind.

$2k a month? okay, we could start a whole 'nother thread right now about that. 😛 are you a member of any men's rights groups, btw?