Buckwheat
22 years ago
“… a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.”
--Paine, Common Sense

I’ve been reading a lot of the political debate on this site and I think that most of the chronic posters are misguided. Some of you feel compelled to “win the arguments” of un-winnable debates. Arguing against someone’s beliefs is stupid. Obviously, a lot of people who post political threads feel compelled to influence the people with the opposing views with information from the web. You will not succeed. It appears to me that most of what passes for political debate is really just regurgitation of others thoughts.

I really don’t mean to be preachy but I’m tired of posts that reference a biased website then say something like, “See I told you so, dumbass.” You haven’t informed anyone of anything but your own stupidity. Does anyone honestly think that they are going to change or even influence anyone’s opinion on a subject using this kind of post? Maybe what you are really trying to do is just call the other side stupid. Well, look in the mirror…
Cavallo
22 years ago
i'm not interested in changing anyone's mind -- unless it was dead from the get go and i can give it a jump start. 🙂 likewise, i enjoy it when someone can flip the "on" switch in my brain in areas previously darkened.

where politics is concerned, it seems like a sporting event. it's pretty much all been done in, say, baseball. there are the strikes, the hits, the catches. there are the rules that have always been the rules. occasionally one will be modified, but it's still basically just plain baseball.

the only thing "different" is the heights and depths the players can reach or fall to, as individuals or as a team. the players change, but they are confined to the same rules, the same equipment, etc.

so i don't expect much to change in politics. i don't even expect much from the players in that game. baseball can still thrill me; politics... eh, not so much.

what i DO enjoy about politics, though, is the way it stirs people up. it gets the juices flowing, the gumption jumpin', etc. sure, it's often just the same old armchair pitchers, so to speak, making the same coulda woulda shoulda commentary -- whatever makes their team look stellar and the other look like crap.

but every now and then a new thought will come along -- not a couldawouldashoulda, but a veritable, bonafide "what if" or "why." it might blow away in the wind like a tangy mustard burp, but every now and again one will fall like a seed, and in time something will grow from it.

the fact that this nation was built upon a "what if" and a "why" gives me hope that other ideas can take root and grow up into something great as well.

until then, there's still baseball. 🙂
Wood-man
22 years ago
Everyone is weird in their own weird way
Buckwheat
22 years ago
Cavallo, I like your baseball analogy. I would've liked it more had the Cubs not lost last night.

I guess that my comments are really intended to stir the kettle of bees and possibly inspire true political discussion. I'm really probably just wanking off.
MACS
22 years ago
I have been TRYING to stay out of the political posts. Basically, we're all f***ed. All the damn politicians are friggin' crooked. We ain't done crap about it yet... how do we fix it?

Any ideas on that?
Buckwheat
22 years ago
MACS I would start with the following:

Real campaign finance reform.

Ban all PACs, Unions, etc… from collectively participating in the political process.

Amend Article II, section 1 of the U.S. Constitution (e.g. Electoral College) and go with a popular vote to elect the president.

…I can’t think of anything else right now, and I actually need to get back to work. But before I go…

And just as an extra for the other problems of our country…

2 years of mandatory military service for everyone (no exceptions) starting upon high school graduation or drop-out. This would definitely be prior to entrance in to college, civilian work, NBA, etc, etc, etc…

Flat tax rate of 20% for every person in the US. No deductions. If you don’t pay you would be thrown out of the country.

Tort reform (primarily limiting damage claims)
dbguru
22 years ago
Cavallos comments are welcome!!

Listen guys, I have no illusion of changing anyones minds here. In fact I'd be very surprised if any of my comments do.

But look what is happening here. I listen to a lot of national right wing radio to understand both sides of the debate. On these right wing shows I hear the jocks pleading with their listeners to be outspoken in spreading their views. So you see evidence of that on this board. A neo-con Bush supporter is far more likely to post their opinions than the liberal minded Cbiders here. You see a neo-con slanted posts and then the other neo-cons would trade compliments on some really repulsive lies, propaganda and other crap (IMHO).

It was really getting my sick to my stomach.

So do you simply stay quiet and let people get away with misleading statements posts and links?? That's the easy way. Do we let CBID become a bastion of right wing propaganda?? Do these neo-con views represent all cigar lovers?? Heck no... I wish we could enjoy and buy ISOMs on CBID but Neo-con leadership will never let that happen otherwise they'd lose in Florida. I digress....

Why not mix it up a little, say what you believe and challenge each other a bit.

I guess its a personal choice, but I think its better if we have more balanced perspectives on our boards.. so I choose to mix it up with the neo-cons.

DB
Buckwheat
22 years ago
dbguru I'm only looking for more true discussion and less BS. I personally feel that both sides of the political exiles have good points in their platforms. I also believe that both parties feel that they are doing what is best for the country. I don't like posts that just put garbage out there and call it truth. I really don’t like posts that tell people that they are idiots for not agreeing with their points of view. Most of the time different points of view are just that, different (not wrong).
Robby
22 years ago
Buh we, without some of the political discourse that goes on here, sometimes it would get pretty boring... It's going to get worse before it gets better. It will get better after W wins re-election in the fall 🙂

I think a lot of it would end with laughs if we were in the same room, and we would buy each other a beer.
dbguru
22 years ago
I know I know I know... 2 comments with questions

You should read all the posts in which name is hurled in my direction just for taking a stand. Personally I believe people resort to namecalling when they have lost the debate and have run out of logic and facts to base there opinions on. However we do have some who resort to namecalling right out of the gate... What would you call them?

What is BS and what is valuable commentary is a personal judgement. Unfortunately there are no objective standards for BS. In my estimation, I've seen a lot of stuff which I think is BS that others support wholeheartedly..... and vice versa. No BS is a noble objective but whose judgement of what is BS do we adopt??
dbguru
22 years ago
Oh Robby.. what would we do without you...
Your right ... CBID life would be boring...
bassdude
22 years ago
include an abolishment of what is basically a two party system.
Buckwheat
22 years ago
Mine, obviously!! I agree that political debate without beer and cigars is like f**king by yourself. It's all wanking. Have a good weekend and let's all cheer for the Cubs!! I truly hate St. Louis...
Buckwheat
22 years ago
I say bring back the Monarchy (but only if I'm king). It's good to be the King!!
Robby
22 years ago
Burn one for me Buck. I'm recovering from some sort of cold/allergy. Haven't had a cigar all week 😞
Buckwheat
22 years ago
Robby, what a drag!! Hope you feel better.
dbguru
22 years ago
That explains all the nervous anxiety in your posts Robby... I sympathize, deeply. Hope you get back to a good stogie soon and RELAX...

This puts your posts in perspective for all of us!!
(I'd be real nasty, if I was off cigars for several days, like you!!)
DB

MACS
22 years ago
Robby... i've been taking up your slack buddy. I've smoked at least 2 a day for the past couple weeks. We are in that "do very little" stage just before deployment, making sure folks have plenty of time to spend with loved ones before the absence... problem is, one of my loved ones is at school, and the other at work... so I smoke all day and work out and watch TV.

Today, I am on the ship... watching TV and surfing the net. All my pre-deployment stuff is done (I have been done for almost a month because i've done so many, I prepare well in advance).

This was a blatant threadjack. Sorry buckwheat. To make it up to you, I leave you with this: If common sense were really common... more people would have it. That is a favorite quote of mine that fits the thread.
Buckwheat
22 years ago
Great point MACS. I saw your post on favorite quotes and I thought of this post. Later
rd2thbn
22 years ago
"But look what is happening here. I listen to a lot of national right wing radio to understand both sides of the debate. On these right wing shows I hear the jocks pleading with their listeners to be outspoken in spreading their views. So you see evidence of that on this board. A neo-con Bush supporter is far more likely to post their opinions than the liberal minded Cbiders here."

Does anybody think there may be more conservatives that smoke cigars than liberals that smoke cigars? After all, wasn't it liberals that went after the tabacco companies to reimburse the states for "cost associated with smoking?" Isn't it liberals that are trying to ban smoking in public places? Isn't it liberals that want to tax internet sales?

I may be wrong, but when I pull up next to an SUV and look over and see a BOTL smoking a stogie, I assume he's a conservative and give him a friendly wave. Now if I thought he could be a liberal, I'd have to give him the finger. 😉
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