Cavallo
  • Cavallo
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
22 years ago
teachers can be canned if special ed students aren't "proficient?" you bet.

in fact, i've heard nothing but bad from VERY GOOD teachers, principals and administrators. we're talking schools and teachers who have won awards of excellence -- but excellence isn't so great in GWB's eyes...

this is an article from my local (wilmington, nc) newspaper that illustrates why educators hate "No Child Left Behind." i don't blame them.

July 20. 2004 12:00AM

Making the grade

By Sam Scott
Staff Writer

[email protected]

Approximately 70 percent of area schools met controversial federal testing standards for student achievement this year, according to results released Monday.

Every district in Southeastern North Carolina showed a marked increase in the number of schools making 100 percent of their goals under the federal No Child Left Behind Act.

Pender County led the charge with 80 percent of its schools making "adequate yearly progress," up from 29 percent last year. New Hanover County schools nearly matched that result with 79 percent of schools making the grade.

At 50 percent, Brunswick County had the lowest percentage of schools achieving all their goals, outside of Whiteville's three-school district. Brunswick, however, nearly tripled last year's total number of schools satisfying federal requirements.

Despite the progress, Brunswick Superintendent Eddy Daniel had little good to say about the No Child Left Behind testing system he sees as punitive and unrewarding of individual growth.

"It's a totally negative, 100 percent biased, absolutely false representation of a school's effectiveness," he said.

The federal act passed in 2001 as a way to raise accountability in schools requires that each of up to 10 groups at a school reach the same standard on proficiency tests. The groups are: the school as a whole, white, black, Native American, Asian, Hispanic, multiracial, limited English speakers, disabled and economically disadvantaged.

This year 68.9 percent of each group had to reach grade-level proficiency on reading. And 74.6 percent had to reach proficiency on statewide math tests.

The test is all or nothing. If one group fails either test, the school is considered a failure, no matter how well the student body at large does.

Waccamaw Elementary School, for example, is in most respects a shining jewel in the Brunswick County school system. Last year more than 90 percent of students tested proficient in reading and math, earning distinction from the state as a School of Excellence.

But Waccamaw's approximately 70 special education kids failed to meet their reading goal for a second year, putting the school afoul of No Child Left Behind requirements. The school met each of its other requirements.

So like 10 other schools in the region, Waccamaw is now in "school improvement status." It has to let children transfer to another school if it wants to continue to receive federal Title I funds available to schools with more than 40 percent of the student body on subsidized lunches.

If any of its groups fail reading in each of the next two years, Waccamaw will have to choose from among certain prescribed responses that could include firing staff, turning over operation to the state or a private company, changing the curriculum or lengthening school time.

Schools that do not receive Title I funding are unaffected by the rules.

Even some whose schools did very well in the results noted the system's toughness. Tom Roper, the chairman of the Pender County school board, was elated to hear of the system's performance, but he also said it was hard to achieve perfection in any field, let alone education.

No Left Child Behind will become more demanding next year. The percentage of each group that must reach proficiency will rise more than seven percentage points in reading and more than 6 percentage points in math. Within a decade, each group is supposed to be 100 percent proficient in each subject.

Vann Blake, the principal of Cape Fear Middle School in Pender County, said he'd try his best. But he believes it is wishful thinking to get everybody to grade level. Students with disabilities are, by definition, not likely to get to the level of their peers, he said. And some foreign students show up at age 12 never having gone to school – in their own language, let alone in English.

"They might as well have passed a law that all boys in the eighth grade be more than 6 feet and all girls have less than 5 percent body fat," he said.

His school is on improvement status as students with disabilities again did not reach their target in math. The school as a whole was more than 92 percent proficient in math.

The school sent out letters a week ago letting parents know they could transfer. Nobody had chosen to leave, he said.
Homebrew
22 years ago
This is typical,
of most of GWBs' programs, not well thought out.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)
P.S. McCain for Pres. in 08.
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
Let's just push 'em through...yeah that'll really help them out in the long run.

It's a great plan! Make teachers, administrators and supervisors accountable for what they're teaching. How many kids were rammed through the system and then forced to work meaningless jobs because that's all they're qualified to do? Doing nothing about it is what a better thing? Some teacher's union gets it's feathers ruffled because they've failed miserably do their job and it's now the GW's fault? Are you going to blame him if he's not around to tell you to inhale and exhale your next breath?

After the school voucher progam you'd think that THAT would've made the schools wake up and do their J-O-B, but nooooooooooo. They want the government to step in. You get what you get when you're willing to let government solve your problems.
uncleb
22 years ago
HOORAY FOR BUSH!!! He has done so much for so many!!!

Excuse me while I barf.
Charlie
22 years ago
uncleb

Don't barf in your humidors!

C
smelly4tay
22 years ago
Bush barely drooled his way through the "special" class for challenged kids. He is probably just bitter cause someone told him to put his tongue back in his mouth.

I don't blame Bush for screwing up, yet another Education program.....who the hell needs an education anyways???? If you can incredibly STUPID, and still be sorta-elected President.....Let's ban all schools from educating.

120,000,000 million people under the age of 35....ALL reading "Oil Contracting: An Illustrated Guide to Grime and Crude."

Look at what Bush did with Texas. Yeeeee-Hawwww!!!! One of the worst education, and environmental disasters EVER, for a state governor. 3.80$ minimum wage.....we're rich! Smog in Houston.....YUM!







bassdude
22 years ago
ok fellas I kind of feel the need to respond.

We have to have some type of education plan. I think we all agree on that. And we definitely do not want the status quo left over from earlier presidents since kids were just passed to get them out of the teacher's hair. I definitely think the teachers have to be held accountable and they all need a substantial pay increase. Along with that the bad teachers need to be fired.

How many of you have actually looked at Bush's plan?

Now to adress a couple of jabs:

I do not think Bush is stupid. If he is and got elected - yes elected, then where does that put you guys who put him down? Gore LOST get over it already.

Texas ranks #34, Washington is #33 in education ranking so you guys up North are no better than Texas.

The minimum wage in Texas is $5.15 completely in line with the rest of the midwestern/southern states.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Illinois 

http://www.morganquinto.com/edrank.htm 
smelly4tay
22 years ago
Ohhh Tony, Thank you sooooo much for cleaning up the facts. Glad you felt the need.

I never said WA education programs are any better.

Saying Bush is stupid, is like saying Kerry can't make up his mind....or that Clinton is sleazy. It's just the way it is. Put-downs??? That is elementary. These are wealthy men, who could give a rat's ass about any of us.

The leader of the strongest country in the World should command our attention. Bush and Kerry don't do that.....SO.....I'll just wait for McCain in 2008.


bassdude
22 years ago
IMO the feds need a plan but the real responsibility should lie with the states. I feel very fortunate to have my kids attend one of the best elementary schools in IL. We are just a little rinky dink town(pop 850) but we are a LITE school, Leaders in Technology Education. Teachers from all over the state come visit our school to get training.

Nothing personal here just a diff in a young lib and an old con.
joldnol
22 years ago
NCLB is a bad program because it does not think things thru. Your handle suggests that you are a Dr. Does that mean that you endorse the philosophy that ALL patients have to be cured by you no matter the what degree of there illness is, what disease they have or what lifestyle choices they make? If you don't have a 100 % cure rate you lose your license? Sound fair? That would really make Dr.s accountable, take away any excuses they have. I'm sure the insurance industry would back such vital medical reform.

No one I know in education is against reform or accountability but NCLB is not the way because it is so unrealistic. It does make sence if your intent is to wreck public education. We have outstanding schools in florida that are failing by NCLB, because of a single subgroup of students not making eduacational gains(usually special ed. students, impoverished students or ESOL students)
miluns
22 years ago
Ok I gotta say this,

There could be more to this issue than I know, but according to the article, a percentage of each grade must be at their grade level in reading and math.

For example: Johnny is in the 3rd grade, in order for him to pass his proficiency tests, he must be able to read and do math at a 3rd grade level. If he can't then he repeats the 3rd grade until he can. Seems like common sense to me. Don't pass a kid on if they can't do the work.

Special education issues should be separate, but I wouldn't even know where to begin, seeing how there are so many learning disabilities.

Just my .02

Mike
Cavallo
  • Cavallo
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
22 years ago
i'm all about having better educated people in our society. i'm all about reform. but ANY change is NOT necessarily GOOD change -- and NCLB is a joke among those who actually ARE good, caring teachers who ARE doing their jobs very, very well.

crappy teachers need to go, and i believe that the states and local municipalities can do a MUCH better job at saying who's good, mediocre and bad than the feds can.

do you really think that we are EVER going to have 100% of students doing 100% of the required work to acheive a 100% rate of success?

would you be happy with a federal dictate that you must be 100% successful in YOUR job or else you face getting canned for being bad at what you do?

say you work in IT writing computer programs. along comes cube farm employee 214, and she forgets to run spell-check on a document, so there are errors in it. next cube down, employee #215 has a problem with booze, and he doesn't show up in time to get his reports done that day. well, YOU, IT-meister, OBVIOUSLY aren't doing YOUR job, so guess what? we're going to fire you because those 2 employees aren't using your program to acheive a 100% success rate!

you know, NCLB is the one bush program that i really expected conservatives and republicans to criticize the most. this is a fed program that sucks money, punishes even the best teachers and does so on the basis of kids who cannot or WILL not do the work necessary to succeed!

i would NEVER have expected cons/reps to essentially say, "johnny can't read because he obviously has a bad teacher -- surely he bears no personal responsiblity for his education!"
DrMaddVibe
22 years ago
The "special education" isn't part of this program. Special needs are evaluated on an individual basis. Every child has goals outlined and parents with teachers do their best to see that they can reach these goals. If you were to go to your local school and poke your head into one of those clases you'd see what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are some lazy ass parents that will be just fine with pushing responsibility off on the school system, but this harping on special needs is a joke. The kids are "mainstreamed" into a regular school and in some cases into regular classrooms, but the ones that aren't won't be held to some high bar to hurdle. People with an IQ of 30 won't be forced to learn multiplication tables. Instead they'd be taught how to count change back or similar tasks. If you think for one second that a special education program is designed to meet the same expectations as a normal classroom then you've been led to believe a lie. Giving these children a desk at a school near them places them into the faces of others. It makes others deal with it. They don't need to be institutionalized anymore. Society has progressed that far.
Cavallo
  • Cavallo
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
22 years ago
actually, special education isn't counted at all in whether or not a school meets NCLB criteria -- special ed kids are not one of the target groups, so even if all of them fail to meet goals, it won't impact whether or not a school "passes."
bassdude
22 years ago
cavallo come on now - i would NEVER have expected cons/reps to essentially say, "johnny can't read because he obviously has a bad teacher -- surely he bears no personal responsiblity for his education!"

So a 5 year old is now responsible enough to take ownership of his education???

There are bad teachers. The parents have to take a lot of responsibility enforcing what the teacher's do or fail to do.
RICKAMAVEN
22 years ago
bassdude

it's not the children or the teachers, it's the parents.

i have discussed this with a number of teachers, that i know to be educated, smart, and dedicated.

the common thread is the parents don't discipline the kids so the kids don't respond to the authority in the class, the teacher.

they kids have no been prepared for school, because the parents have not prepared them. 5 year olds should already been taught to read by their parents and they should have instilled into their children the desire to learn.

bring a 5 year old into a school with no interest in learning and who is undisciplined, what should you honestly expect from a teacher?

it gets worse in high school and i have talked to college professors who tell me the kids will perform with the minimum of effort necessary to get by. they are simply not motivated, never have been and never will.

i exclude of course, your kids and my kids, and a few others, who have been raised properly, have not been spoiled, understand the rules of society at their level, and who want to learn.
Cavallo
  • Cavallo
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
22 years ago
bassdude -- a five year-old isn't expected to read at all. 🙂 think a few years up from kindergarten, yo.

yes, there are bad teachers. absolutely. my wife's a teacher and acknowledges that there are good, mediocre and bad teachers, too. but should a good teacher lose his or her job because a couple of slackers in their sophomore year of high school cut class to go smoke weed and watch MTV and end up with failing grades that skew the stats of that teacher's class just enough to make that class not meet the goals?

there are MANY factors that go into a child's education: teachers, parents and children make up the main triad, but there are also socio-economic factors, health factors, learning disabilities, different RATES of learning ability and aptitude, etc. add on to that such things as personal motivation, testing ability, attitude, attendance, willingness to learn, and those are a lot of factors. however, what NCLB does is put EVERY ONE of those factors squarely on the shoulders of the TEACHER.

if the teacher can't make sure johnny COMES to school, has the inate, biological ability to learn his lessons, does his homework correctly, and passes every single test, that teacher's head is on the chopping block.

IF johnny is a slacker, has health problems, skips classes, is into drugs or alcohol, has an attitude problem, has parents that don't FORCE him to do every bit of his homework, doesn't care about school or grades, and dozens of other things that SOME kids do, his teacher can be fired.

that's a hell of a lot to simply dump on teachers and say "if he screws up, you're fired."

what's going to happen when NO CLASS makes that 100%? fire ALL the teachers?

reform is needed, yes. but NCLB is not reality-based. can you imagine being given charge for a few hours mon-fri of 30 random teenagers from all socio-economic backgrounds, races and abilities, and if a handful of them don't meet the goals someone else has laid out there 100%, you get canned? is that realistic even if you were in charge of 30 random ADULTS?
joldnol
22 years ago
BS DR!!!!!!! You go right ahead and believe that special ed is not factored in. I've got property east of Jacksonville Beach to sell you too. Everyone IS
REQUIRED to pass in just a few years....all it ultimately does is sink public ed and promotes vouchers which is it's main goal.
bassdude
22 years ago
a five year-old isn't expected to read at all. 🙂 think a few years up from kindergarten, yo.

That does not apply here. Our kids start learning the basics in K(at 5) and are reading independantly in 1st grade. My 2nd grader routinely brings home 100+ page books. Reads them in a few days then takes an exam.
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