I'm only aware of Lincoln and FDR having done it. Please provide examples of Washington and GWB. I'm not disputing your statements, just asking for clarification.

Ok I've been waiting to see what THL was getting at with his thread?? But CP showed something very important in his last post...

the knowledge leading into the assumption that this (sucession) would never happen again (not sure knowledge is the word I'm looking for?)

we can go Hypothetical here for a bit... with events of the current day... let's say the US Government Orders all the people of America to get Vaccinated for the possiblity of an Anthrax and or even a Smallpox attack on U.S. Soil... or this event did occure and the same order came down... lets say some of the citizens of these States do not comply with this Governement order and there is enough from each of the States to cause their legislature to follow up on the citizens rights rather then the Government order... would this not be enough for these State to Succeed from the Union and fall back to rely on their own governing Constitutions?

I wait for the response...

Hog

sorry bout that, did not see the follow-up above...

Washington would however be exempt because the United States Constitution was not adopted prior to the American Revolution at the time I think (correct me if I'm wrong) these United States known as the 13 colonies were being run on what is known as the Articals of Confederation which later was drafted in parts into the Constitution of these United States during the Continental Congress of 1774??

Hog

The Constiutional Conventions started in 1787 and GW was elected as the 1st Pres. under the new const. in 1789. Hog, I think you're refering to the Declaration of Independence which was envisioned by the Cont. Congress of 1774 and signed in 1776.

Yes you are correct THL.. Declaration of Independence was it... and that document was after George Washington lead into the Revolution. so Habeas Corpus would not apply to George Washington with the Constitution we have today.

Hog

Hog, that was my thinking regarding Washington. If he did it as the commander of the Continental Armies then he wasn't bound by the Const. At any rate I can't find any references to him having done it at all.

CigarPrimate?

"Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of those Ends (Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness), it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness..." Declaration of Independence, 1776

This statement from the Declaration of Independence would seem to run contrary to CigarPrimate's "Perfect Unon" theory. Notice the Constitution just said "in order to form a more perfect union". It doesn't imply a perfection so good that nobody would ever want to leave. More perfect than what?

I submit that the answer to THL's original question is still undetermined and is mired in the debate of lose versus strict construction of the US Constitution. The US Constitution does not specifically say that you can't leave the club once you join. It also does not say you can ever leave. Hence the difference of opinion.

Some states thought they could leave because they never agreed not to so they held legal constitutional conventions according to their state constitutions and voted to secede. If they were right, they were then independent nations that were invaded, conquered, and annexed. If they were wrong, they were a rebellion and were squashed.

After the Civil War, the states that seceded were required to draft new constitutions that formally repealed their previous secession documents and had to ratify the 13th amendment abolishing slavery. If their secession was merely a rebellion, why go to this formal extreme of repealing the secession document and re-admitting a state that never left?

In the case of Florida, a new state constitution was drafted in 1865 but rejected by the US Congress and the state was placed under military rule until 1868 when another state constitution was accepted.

The following was added to get the military occupation to end: "Section 21. This State shall ever remain a member of the American Union, the people thereof a part of the American nation, and any attempt from whatever source, or upon whatever pretense, to dissolve said Union, or to sever said nation, shall be resisted with the whole power of the State."

In 1885, Florida again created and ratified a new state constitution. The above section about never leaving the union was removed and it is still gone today in newer versions of the Florida state constitution.

this is an interesting thread. i'm enjoying the read, fellas.

HockeyDad, thanks for the understandable clerifications...

I'm also still wanting to know what inspired THL to come up with this thread?

one other thing... is Florida's State Constitution the only one that reads this way?

"In 1885, Florida again created and ratified a new state constitution. The above section about never leaving the union was removed and it is still gone today in newer versions of the Florida state constitution."

Or have other States removed this from their Constitution also?

Hog

HockeyDad, thanks for the understandable clerifications...

I'm also still wanting to know what inspired THL to come up with this thread?

one other thing... is Florida's State Constitution the only one that reads this way?

"In 1885, Florida again created and ratified a new state constitution. The above section about never leaving the union was removed and it is still gone today in newer versions of the Florida state constitution."

Or have other States removed this from their Constitution also?

Hog

Damn I knew when I seen the "Error" box come up I should have backed out of the post and hit refresh...

sorry bout the double post ;0)

Hog

Habeas corpus was written into the original text of the constitution, which was passed into law in 1788, and Washington was sworn into office in 1789, so he would have been obliged to uphold this civil liberty as president.

My mistake was attributing the de facto suspension of civil liberties under the Alien and Sedition acts of 1798, which was done under president John Adams, not Washington.

Additionally, General (not yet president) Andrew Jackson suspended this liberty in the War of 1812.

Since habeas corpus roughly means you cannot be jailed if there are no charges against you, really all that need be done is fabricate some trumped up charges to get around this triviality, which is done regularly. It can also be done legally for reasons of national security as GW Bush has recently shown.

Hey no such things as mistakes CP... all forgiven.. this refreshing thread has me going back 23 yrs to the days of Old when this discussion on the Constitution was fresh in my mind and on paper for classes...LOL

Hog

I like it because it's short and accessible. It's the new tax law that gives me problems.

The State of Georgia also had a new state constitution in 1865 that didn't pass muster.

In 1868, Georgia added the following to get the military occupation to end:

" Section 25. Treason against the State of Georgia shall consist only in levying war against the State, or the United States, or adhering to the enemies thereof, giving them aid and comfort; and no person shall be convicted of treason except on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or his own confession in open court."

"Section 33. The State of Georgia shall ever remain a member of the American Union; the people thereof are a part of the American nation; every citizen thereof owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and Government of the United States, and no law or ordinance of this State, in contravention or subversion thereof, shall ever have any binding force."

In 1877 Georgia ratified a new state constitution. The above sections now read:

"Par. II. Treason against the State of Georgia, shall consist in levying war against her; adhering to her enemies; giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason, except on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or confession in open court."

The part about ever remaining part of the union is gone and still is today.

OK again I was confused as to thinking these States had given up their rights to succeed from the Union when in fact they remained their rights by removing or never placing such wording into their Constitution...

meaning that any State can Succeed from the Union under the Constitution of such said State...

got it, I was a bit worried here LOL

Hog

The judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and miners constantly working under ground to undermine the foundations of our confederated fabric. They are construing our constitution from a co-ordination of a general and special government to a general and supreme one alone." --Thomas Jefferson

http://federalistpatriot.us/ 
"The rights of neutrality will only be respected when they are defended by an adequate power. A nation, despicable by its weakness, forfeits even the privilege of being neutral."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 11

Hog

Oh yea, and as far as Bush suspending habeas corpus, just Googling "Bush supends habeas corpus," should keep you busy for quite awhile. Here's one of many actual court documents refering to it however:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/terrorism/cltnbush022102ord.pdf 

Very refreshing thread guys.

Did states have the Constutional right to secede from the Union of those states?
It appears this question has been answered.

Back to hogs question, what was the purpose of the original question ?........THL ?

Here is another tidbit:

Florida and Georgia had to add text that basically issued an oath of allegiance to the United States to get back in good standing and get the military occupation terminated. After waiting for a few years to pass and the Federal troops are gone (gone west to deal with Indians), they then strip the language right back out thus restoring the language back to pre-Civil War days.

Now take a look at the state constitutions of Massachusetts, Ohio, New York, and other prominent northern states during the Civil War. They do not have the oath of allegiance language that was forced on Florida, Georgia, and the other secessionist states. The northern states didn't have it before the war, didn't add it after, and still don't have it today.

This all seems quite complicated if the states never had the right to secede.