Good argument....now we can blame the Unions for higher taxes....sure...that's the problem!

Todog: Great stats. But please define "increased productivity". Was it calculated by the Union to justify their existence? Also, I never claimed union members don't get paid more money or have more benefits. But unions create a false pay scale which is bad in a capitalistic economy. And they do indeed breed poor productivity and job enthusiasm. Sure, the new guy gets excited because he makes 34% more (before dues of course), but once he works his butt off and gets spoken to for working too hard and making the tenured folks look bad, well you get the picture. And please don't give unions credit for raising the minimum wage. They may be in favor of it, but most unions don't pay minimum because the employee would make LESS than minimum after dues. I don't hate unions because they are corrupt. I could care less about the union boss making 7 figures. I hate unions because they foster a sense of entitlement. If I make $24 an hour it should be because I EARN it. Not because my union says that what ****-diggers should make with less than 4 years on the job. And if I am a lazy bum, I should be dealt with accordingly without the Union backing my sorry ass simply because I've been with them for 19 years. You see my point. The Unions promote a bastardized form of Socialism, and America is left paying the bill. Is that worth the additional 34%?

As for the Patriots....!? Are you trying to make my point for me? Yes, NFL players are part of a union. Which should prove to you that they are not needed. What the hell does a 24 year millionaire need a group backing him for? So he can make 100 million instead of the paltry 50 million? Or perhaps he needs better health care since he can't afford it? Players Unions have nearly ruined pro sports.

Wrong! the owners have ruined the sport. Without the players, they don't have the entertainment to sell. The same with private industry fighting unions. They don't want to pay the workers what they deserve. Nike is a great example!!!

Have Unions outlived their usefullness? A few questions to think about: Would employers provide their workers with health insurance if unions were not there to insist on it? If they did provide some type of health insurance, would it be as good as what the unions have won? Without the unions as the watchdog they are, would the government enforce the Occupational, Safety and Health Act? Without the protection offered workers by union contracts, would a lot of employees end up losing their jobs because they would allow themselves to be abused? Would employees of large corporations get the respect,dignity and security that they have without union backing? Without Unions there to make sure that the law is enforced, wouldn't a lot of employers try to cheat workers by paying less than the federal minimum wage, state prevailing wage, or refusing to pay overtime? Without a Union to turn for help, wouldn't alot of women be subjected to sexual harassment and be afraid for speaking out for fear of being fired..the same for other minorities and racial discrimination? No indeed, Unions have not outlived there usefulness. They are needed now more than ever. Until government truly watches out for the American people,until business takes the view that civilized behavior towards employees and consumers is more important than the bottom line or Tailgater's view, there will be a need for Unions, for the ability of workers to speak and unite as one, regardless of race, gender, religion or capabilities you can count on.

I do agree with Tailgater on one of his points. A reward system should be inplemented for expeience or years on the job. The new young turk should not be entitled to the same wages witout the experience. With regard to the lazy bums who corrupt and abuse the system as union members, they should be held to a higher standard of accountability just as the corrupt owners of the corporations and leaders of government should be.

Hogwash. You have been bamboozeled by the Unions! You've been to one too many meetings. For crying out loud, you sound brainwashed! Next I'll hear how the unions are the reason for the sun rising every morning. If you want credibility, don't suggest that "fair" wages are won by unions. And don't pretend that Unions are really in it for the workers. Just like those big corporations that you hate, the Unions are in if for the bottom line: Your Dues. And it's a REAL SHAME that you feel you need for the Government and/or a Union to look out for you. What ever happened to Responsiblity and Self Respect?! I guess there are no dues for that...

I am a Union worker, I know that I enjoy many things today because of the devotion and sacrifices of unionists before me who fought to win a better life for all working people. I pledge to help my union brothers and sisters by buying union made products and using union services. I pledge further to buy only those goods in the marketplace that are made in this country by fellow workers and to avoid the imported products of those companies that export production, technology and jobs to low wage countries, thus destroying jobs and undermining the economy of this nation. As a Unionist, I will not permit my union-earned dollars to profit those who refuse to recognize their employees' right to participate in the collective bargaining process, and do not permit them to have a strong voice in determinig their own future. I pledge also to look for the Union label on all goods and services that I use. By doing so, I help strengthen the security of those men and women who believe as I do in the goals of the free labor movement. I demonstrate my unity with my labor brothers and sisters by observing a simple principle- the Union Label Golden Rule: Buy Union products and use Union services as you would have Union wages and benefits paid unto you........Oh my God! I must be brainwashed like the omniscient Tailgater has proposed! I say this pledge right after my prayers to God and Pledge of Allegiance to my Country right before I go to sleep! John

Yes! I expect my Government and Union to look out for me without any loss of responsibility and self repsct. For you to question these qualities that I do in fact have, shows simply that you are lacking in these same qualities and quite a few others. According to your omnicient point of view, no one else is allowed to have a belief or point of view contrary to yours. You obviously don't see the sun rise every morning like I do and yes, that is the result of good, hard Union work!

Exactly which of my qualities (or lack thereof) do you question? Is it the fact that I choose to work for my dollar without the group voting on how much I am worth? Here in the Northeast, with an everchanging weather pattern, many Union Carpenters work part time. That is, they work full time in the nice weather and not at all in the cold winters. Most non-union carpenters that I know make less per hour but work all year. That saves ME money because my tax dollars are not supporting their winter vacations like they are the unionist who is on unemployment benefits. Unions promote complacency by ignoring individual effort. You see it as a bigger paycheck, and that's fine. You've got a good moral background and are proud of this country. I don't dislike the union members, simply the organization itself. When I wanted or deserved a pay raise, I had to take initiative and request it myself. Unions force the raise by striking. Is that supply and demand or is that strong-arming? Unity is indeed grand, but at what cost? Is the person on the assembly line with minimal education really worth $35 and hour? Or is that the rate as set by the union? Don't be so paranoid nor so afraid that you need your bed made for you each night. The sun WILL come up tomorrow despite your comfy union safety blanket, not because of it.

Just curious, Todog: Since you buy only American, which cigars do you smoke, White Owl or Hava-Tampas?

LaGloria makes some of their cigars in Miami! I know Todog likes LaGloria Cubanas...........good discussion guys! Charlie

Yes there are good things and bad things about unions. If you know your US history then you know what the industrial workplace was like before unions. Are the majority of workers better off now than their forefathers were then? I must say they are. The unions are largely responsible. I don't know who or what else you can give credit to.

100% true. They were indeed important once upon a time. But people used to drink cod liver oil to stay healthy. Things change. The symbol of the Union should stand proudly in the history of America, but they have overstepped their bounds to the point where they are more detrimental than useful for the overall good. Cripes, not a month goes by without some major union strike. Are things really that bad at the workplace, or are peoples greed and sense of entitlement clouding their judgement? If ya gotta keep up with the Jones', please do so by your own accord. Improve your self, go to school, learn a trade, work extra hours. Don't gather your coworkers and hold your employer at gunpoint. That doesn't provide a "fair" wage.

Leave it to Tailgater to nickel and dime for the sake of argument. Yes! I confess that I do enjoy this wonderful habit of smoking cigars payed for with my hard-earned union wage and that there are no union made or sold cigars that I can find....just as I'm sure that Tailgater enjoys the many Union-made and sold comforts of everyday life in the beautiful Democratic state of Massachusetts. John

One of my beefs with Tailgater is that he assumes Union workers are not educated. This shouldn't even be an issue. I would die for the talents of some Union carpenters(and non-union for that matter) who have mininimal education. If they can do the job wherever they may be, they deserve the pay whether it is $10.00 or $35.00 per hour. The amount of education should have no bearing on their talents and dedication as workers. John

I agree that there are some bad apples in union membership and some of the Unions themselves are indeed corrupt. You cannot blame all Uions and there membership as a whole for these bad apples! Not all Unions promote complacency by ignoring individual effort. That complacency and individual effort can only be contolled by the individual. There are many more non-union workers on unemployment that your hard earned tax dollars are paying for. The union workers who are unemployed are supported by their unions in this effort. My union negotiates a contract that we ratify. Why is this different than our right to vote for the candidate of choice in an election. I can live with the fact that my candidate might lose but you cannot live with the fact that Unions are a powerful presence in our society! It is obvious that Tailgater and I will never be in agreement on this subject but at least I assume that we can can choose how we want to live our lives wether it be union or non-union. I have lived and grown up in a union family my whole life and graduated from college also, and this way of life has been successful for me and countless other around me. Tailgater has obviously found success his way also but I do not pretend to argue that his way is the wrong way as he has argued that the Union way is the wrong way!

On a side and humorous note...The union label's first known use in the U.S. was in 1869 in San Francisco by the Carpenter's Eight Hour League which promoted the eight hour work day. Five year later, cigar makers took the idea one step further and posted "union made" labels on their products. The label idea was so successful that the Cigar Worker's International wrote into it's constitution the rules governing the use of labels which is still used by all unions today! For this reason, I am smoking a La Gloria Cubana tonight in honor of the birth of the Union Label and all fellow Union members. John

So, in a nutshell: unions are a good thing which are often misused by bad people. Kind of like every other good thing in the history of the world. That will be my last word on the subject. Thanks for the education!

Where did I say or even imply that union members are uneducated? Although it is true that most unions cover only the laborers and not the management, I never claimed union workers were inferior by intelligence or otherwise. It is the IDEA that the ONLY way you can live the quality of life you presently do is through a large organization that sets the rules for you that I disagree with. You're obviously an intelligent person, yet you preach the party line like it's some cult. It's OK to be proud of your job and to be thankful for the progress directly attributed to the Unions. But I'm being objective when I say they're no longer useful. I have no reason to be otherwise, so what else would my agenda be?