RICKAMAVEN
Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:58:00 AM
mrs schaivo's husband and parents have been trying to decide what is best for her because of her perceived inability to function as a human being. i would hope that if either toby or i had to face such a predicament, we would follow the instructions we have given each other. no brain waves, no ability to think, means we are no longer alive. the flesh that can function with help from outside sources would only keep the flesh functioning, not unlike a heart kept beating in a glass bowl with blood and electrical stimulation still pumping. like a dead frog the has muscle responses to electrical stimulation.

but more to the point. i am trying to remember, referring to my notes, what the founding fathers,

there were no founding mothers, albeit without the mothers, there would have been no fathers, had to say about someone like mrs schaivo.

between trying to decide how groups of people who could not attend every meeting about what the country should do regarding the minutia of the country and agreeing that a group of people in a town or village could pick someone to speak for them, a representative, if you will, and what to do about a state or commonwealth with a lot of spokesman trying to work with a smaller state with less spokes people, and finally compromising to have two seperate groups that could work fairly with each other to find the common, most acceptable solution to each of the countries needs,

and trying to decide whether white colored people had the right to keep black colored people much the same as they kept their goats, chickens, cows and horses, except the white colored people could beat the crap out of them and **** the young ones that they found attractive, i mean the black colored people, not the goats, chickens, cows, or horses, mrs shaivo's name never came up.

over the years these spokesman on behalf of the people spoke for made decisions, like let's have a postal system that would be the same for everyone so people could write letters to each other and get letters in return. when people complained that some folks were driving their buggys too fast through a crowded town, endangering children and older people who couldn't hear and couldn't get out of the way, they agreed on some rules about driving too fast because those driving too fast because they liked the feel of the wind or were in a hurry because they overslept, would have to abide by, to protect others.

again in all these discussions and meetings no one brought up mrs schaivo' problem. there was of cours,

a general feeling about what the discussions and meeting were supposed to be about, and there was a consensus that the spokesman should keep their business limited to things that had an affect on the people as a whole and not butt into the personal lives of people who did things that did not have any impact on others.

people could build a barn or a house out of whatever they had available, mud, wood, or rocks. people could build a fence as long as it was on their own property and again they could build any fence they felt served their needs.

then some idiot convinced some other idiot that they should get together and convince the other idiot spokesmen that it would be a good idea if the central government would spend money from the common coffers to build a road for their own people, so they wouldn't have to walk in the mud to church.

that was all it took, and they were off and running. the common coffers were fair game for anyone smart enough steal some of it.

but again mrs schaivo's name never came up.

next thing you know, these spokesman were deciding who could have sex with who and under what conditions and once you are in someone's bedroom, you own their lives.

now mrs schaivo is fair game.

Mo'sMan
Sunday, March 20, 2005 11:38:00 AM
Rick says.......

then some idiot convinced some other idiot that they should get together and convince the other idiot spokesmen that it would be a good idea if the central government would spend money from the common coffers to build a road for their own people, so they wouldn't have to walk in the mud to church.

Example please? I am not sure ti ws all about "church", your favorite whipping boy.

Rick says.......

next thing you know, these spokesman were deciding who could have sex with who and under what conditions and once you are in someone's bedroom, you own their lives.

Yup. Common ethics and morality "for the common good" have been am issue for centuries before America existed.

Rick says.......

now mrs schaivo is fair game.

Her situation has nothing to do with "roads for churches" or "sex with consenting adults". it has to do with the definition of "dead" and who has control to stop life support.

***ATTENTION***

I am agreeing with Ricks basic premise. Despite the fact tat I am generally a conservative christian, I also beleive the government is way to involved with our lives. Plenty of folks here applauded drug laws, the patriot act, social service intervention for spanking children, etc. Now, see what happens when tobacco becomes a crime. Think not? When ya'll didn't stand up against unreasonable search and seizure against people sitting at home smoking bud, ya'll let the little fox through the back gate. Now the little fox has become a ravenous wolf.

I know that there are at least two policeman that frequent this board. if you read this, I would appreciate an answer to this question.......what will you do if tobacco is outlawed? Would you arrest the staff at CBID?

Politically, while I generally vote republican, I feel it's just the lesser of two evils. I would prefer something more libertine.

pabloescabar
Sunday, March 20, 2005 11:51:00 AM
that's funny, "smoking bud"~ I drink mine's...
Thom
Sunday, March 20, 2005 12:02:00 PM

I'm seeing my lawyer next week to draw up a Living Will. I suggest others do to.

RICKAMAVEN
Sunday, March 20, 2005 1:51:00 PM
Mo'sMan

where else would people back then walk together to a central place, the witch burning ceremony, the 7/11, wal mart?

common morality has been an issue since the beginining of religions. before that you just knocked a female on the head and dragged her to your cave. haven't you seen the flintstons?

as far as mrs schaivo is concered, you don't seem to be able to follow a theme. when you read a book, which i assume you have, the author starts with a premise.

jack loves mary.

or

john want's to build something.

or harry has an idea.

then the author tells his tale and if you keep reading to the end you will understand he story he has told.

it's called fiction and people read it all the time, sometimes in the privacy of their own homes.

non-fiction is the opposite. it is not a story made up to tell a tale like fiction.

for example

"little red riding hood" is fiction. there wasn't a real girls walking through a real forest to meet a real grandmother and ended up being eaten by a real wolf.

there is a message in the story though because all good fiction presents ideas.

this one brings to light the disgusting story about that poor girl in florida and that animal pedophile that murdered her and needs to be destroyed like any other animal gone wild. or he needs to be jailed and allowed to mix with the general population who would be informed of why he was there.

an example of non fiction would be an atlas. it would have pictures of maps of real places and information about sizes of various places and directions to get there.

a better example of fiction would be what you call a bible.

a better example of non-fiction would be darwins's

"the origin of species : by means of natural selection or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life."

a better example of fiction is this little story i just wrote and dedicate to you.

Mo'sMan
Sunday, March 20, 2005 2:44:00 PM
Rick says.......

where else would people back then walk together to a central place, the witch burning ceremony, the 7/11, wal mart?

As is typical of most of your posts, your ability to reason beyond your ignorance shows through. I'll list seven more just to show how narrow mondedness runs in your family.......

1) the market

2) the neighbors

3) to school (yup, they existed)

4) the local magistrate

5) to gather supplies

6) to another country for whatever reason

7) doctors?

Rick says.......

common morality has been an issue since the beginining of religions. before that you just knocked a female on the head and dragged her to your cave. haven't you seen the flintstons?

Yup, the Flintstones. Pure fiction......the same stuff you base your beliefs upon. Are you advocating violence against women? You barbaric male oppressor.

Rick says.......

this one brings to light the disgusting story about that poor girl in florida and that animal pedophile that murdered her and needs to be destroyed like any other animal gone wild. or he needs to be jailed and allowed to mix with the general population who would be informed of why he was there.

Evidence? If not, I'm going to make some accusations against you for sheer fun and emotional appeal.

Rick says.......

a better example of fiction would be what you call a bible.

This definitely shows your ignorance. The bible is full of facts.

Rick says.......

a better example of non-fiction would be darwins's

"the origin of species : by means of natural selection or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life."

I asked before and you didn't answer, so I'll ask again.......can you recreate evolution in the labratory? Can you show how non-life brings about abiogenesis? How about how the universe was created?

MACS
Sunday, March 20, 2005 2:53:00 PM
I think it is totally her husband's decision. When they married, her parents lost all rights to decide her fate, in my opinion.

That being said... even with her not being able to function as a normal human being, I think it is cruel to stop feeding her. It's not like she is on life support, she's not. She is functioning without it, but she doesn't have the ability to drink or eat, so they are doing it through a tube. If they stop the feeding, she'll die a slow death and nobody deserves that.

This is my opinion.

pabloescabar
Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:14:00 PM
some time's I drink it from a straw...
Thom
Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:32:00 PM
LMFAO!!!! Pablo, that is the funniest remark that I've ever heard about this issue. LOL I'm still laughing... oh, man.
Thom
Sunday, March 20, 2005 3:36:00 PM
Oh, boy did I misread what you were saying. I thought you were talking about... oh, nevermind.

e-mail me if you really want to know.

thomkokenge at gmail dot com

RICKAMAVEN
Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:03:00 PM
1) the market sorry no 7'11's or ralph's back then

2) the neighbors didn't i say a central place

3) to school (yup, they existed) lincoln walked to school

4) the local magistrate he came to town when law and order was finally established

5) to gather supplies where would that have been in early america, the nearest bunch of trees.

6) to another country for whatever reason they could barely visit each other hat with all the choirs.

7) doctors? back then doctors made house calls.

"You barbaric male oppressor. " yes, toby like to get hit on the head, if i skip a day or so she says i am neglecting her.

"Evidence? If not, I'm going to make some accusations against you for sheer fun and emotional appeal."

this one i can't answer because i have no idea what the hell you are talikng about.

as far as evolution is concerned, may i suggest you learn your multiplication table. before you try algebra, geometry, trig, or calculus.

i must admit you are nice to have in class. you are never tardy or absent. you pay attention. you don't talk out of turn.

now i must make you a better pupil then my desk that has the same atributes that you have.

RICKAMAVEN
Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:15:00 PM
MACS(SW)

i was going to answer you first, but Mo'sMan was waving his hand so much i needed to respond to him. by the way what would mo'sman mean. sounds like he/she is someone's man,

i agree with you about the husband's rights and the parents rights having been abrogated when she and her husband married.

if this hadn't become a national priority, 5 mg of versed, a little extra morphine to eliminate pain, and she could have gone to sleep like all the dogs and cats i have outlived and had to put down when they were hurting and could not function.

i don't like the starving options at all. i also think it is cruel.

i watched my partner leave us when he was destroyed by cancer and the doctor in his mercy increased his dose of morphine or whatever was in the iv drip. jerry just went quietly and peacefully with no pain left showing on his face.

pabloescabar
Sunday, March 20, 2005 6:25:00 PM
hey pop's you's going ta call or what ? my hand was up too...
countryboy83
Sunday, March 20, 2005 7:03:00 PM
I'm going to throw my oppinion on the title of this thread... something most of you have drifted away from from the very beginning of this thread...

... I would rather die a criminal death of leathel injection than to die by the means that Terri Shievo has been chosen to die through starvation. I am outraged by the lack of human compassion that the court system is willing to put her through for days and days until finally her body can't live another hour with out a drink of water or a bite of food. Simply disgusting. What if it was your mother and lets say she has alshimers.... and in a nursing home they decided to let her starve to death.... just disgusting.

Country

erkwgz
Sunday, March 20, 2005 7:09:00 PM
I am sorry to disagree but, I would rather starve to death than live the life that she is living.

A terrible choice for any loved one to make. IMHO.

A living will is the only way to go. Takes the responsibility of making that decision out of other peoples hands.

Later.....Erik

countryboy83
Sunday, March 20, 2005 7:18:00 PM
I didn't say I wanted to live what she is living (although if you have seen the footage of her laughing than it proves that not a soul here can say whether or not she is unhappy with how she is living) that's just our assumption based on how we see things in our situation......

... back to the point... I wouldn't want to live like she is either.... my point is, starving someone to death is more inhuman than any capital punishment America has ever used...

-hanging

-gas chamber

-lethel injection

-Electric chair

...STARVING THEM TO DEATH!!!!

jackconrad
Sunday, March 20, 2005 7:29:00 PM
Rick and Shawn .This is about Terry's right's.By the way Rick i must say what a silly thing that we almost worship the words of the founding fathers, It is preposterous to think that men who never envisioned cars,planes,A-bombs and slaves being freed were so wise that we should never revisit their laws. I hail their bravery but times do change. I might be Republican but that does not mean i can't be open- minded.
RICKAMAVEN
Sunday, March 20, 2005 8:36:00 PM
jackconrad

i agree with you compleely. my point was and still is, congress has no business getting involved with this woman's plight. her husband and doctor should make the decision. being a republican or democat or any other political beliefs should have nothing to do with this case.

i firmly believe this is an issue of religious beliefs.

i also agree with countryboy83. starving her to death and putting her through what ever she might endure for the few days or weeks is barbaric.

maxelrod
Monday, March 21, 2005 2:47:00 AM
I don't normally chime in on these messages, but...

If you were in a coma, and on life support (i.e.; resperator, etc), and your familly wanted to unplug, most likely they would want a brain scan to see if you are brain dead before removing your life support. If you were not, chance are you would stay plugged in, because unplugging would be murder. Further, if they did unplug you, and you started to breath on your own (assumming you had some brain activity that could support that function), then what. Would it be ok to seek other, less passive methods, to end you life.

Terri is not on life support. She is responsive, and, according to he familly and doctors, she has some quality of life, and it is not unheard of that people recover. I am quite surprised that "starving her to death" is even an option.

I also agree that in most cases it should be up to the husband/doctors. But there is some question in this case whether the husband has her best interest in mind. According to a nurse that was taking care of Terri, "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?'" (taken from a story on Newsmax.com)

In addition, I agree that in most cases the government should not interfere in these type of cases, but in this case I am grateful that the government has stepped in to protect someone who can not protest herself.

Bottom line is that she is not in a vegitative state, and if her parents want to care for her and see to her possible rehabilitation, they should be allowed to do that.

AVB
  • AVB
  • Aficionado
Monday, March 21, 2005 3:07:00 AM
Maxelrod says: Bottom line is that she is not in a vegitative state, and if her parents want to care for her and see to her possible rehabilitation, they should be allowed to do that.

Not true at all. Courts have already ruled that based on the available medical evidence she is in a "persistent vegetative state." Also, nobody has ever recovered from 15 years in that condition.