Remember Afganastan fought the USSR to a draw with no tanks or airpower

Yep what Macs said... there would be Many 1000's heading back home to protect their family's... then whats the mighty government going to do Wagner??

Of the People, for the People!!!!

Wagner, do you even have a clue of what happened at Ruby Ridge?? because the Son and Wife of Randy Weaver do not... The Son because he was on his own property and some stranger dressed like a robber and Shot his Dog... So the boy protecting house, land and Mother shot back with a 22... In turn Federal agents who were hiding in the bushes shot the boy in the back while he was trying to run back to the house His father went out to get his son and was also shot wounded, he made it back to the house when his wife opened the door to let him back in a federal agent shot her face off...she holding her 10 month old in her arms at the time... and ya know what Wagner... Randy Weaver was found innocent of all charges although he lost most of his family to (at the time a Clinton's way of rounding up criminals in America) he (Weaver) was awarded $3.1 mil for the damages to his family and property...

the above took place on American Soil against an American Family in 1992... 9 years later the real threat hit America right between the eye's while Clinton and his B!tch Janet Reno was rounding up American Citizens here in the US... and now we've got a chance for a repeat with Hillary in 2008??? HAHAHA!!!

So Yes Wagner, if I had property in the country and some masked men were on my property threatening harm... You damn sure bet you I'm going to protect what is mine!!!!

Hog

btw you can read about Ruby Ridge here:

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/rubyridge/ 

Oh and one more thing... you know what the function of the Clinton Administration and Janet Reno's attempts at the time were??? Disarming Americans.. and not just any Americans... they were pin pointing Christian Americans.... while Osama Bin Ladin was given a free walk!!!

Hell Adroomi, I thought you were a trained killer, piano wire, handguns and knives!?! LOL A 12 gauge!

Charlie

MACS(SW)Wrote,

"Besides the fact that you're forgetting that military members are citizens too. We CAN and DO think for ourselves.

If I was ordered to start disarming the general population, I would not only disobey, I would go AWOL and JOIN the general population. As would many of my brothers and sisters in the service. "

As would be your duty. You swore to uphold the constitution, not the government. If the government oversteps the constitution, it is your duty to engage the illegal government.

At least that is the way I read the oath.

Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

hog/others:

You guys really like to live in the land of make believe don't you? You individually and collectively are no match for the forces under our governments control. If such forces could be mustered the insurgents in Iraq would have been declared victors long ago. Your gun gives you the same comfort that a teddy bear gives a small child, the mistaken belief that it will keep you safe from harm. Furthermore, with the intelligence now vested in our government, what with electronic monitoring equipment, the ability to retain citizens at will (read the full "patriot" act), etc., any US insurgency would be crushed in no time. We have created a monster that is beyond our ability to control other than by using our common sense and getting the scoundrels out of office as soon as possible. However as you and others so blindly support the white house I see little hope we can effectively contain the government in this way either.

Another thought:

When the blackhawk comes swooping down on you firing missles your going to hold it at bay with a handgun? Now I am laughing my ass off. I would pay to see that one!!!

By the way, to limit govenment control over our military maybe I should support our (I mean your) president's budget cuts for veterans. But that's fodder for another thread. You say he's a good military supporter?---What???

Wagner

who do you suggest we put in office in these Scoundruls place Wagner?? You show me one politician that has held what he/she said was going to do before getting to that office they're holding?? and then show me one that would be a good candidate to replace this person??

You missed my point as far as what I wrote above... I will Protect what is rightfully mine at whatever the cost!!!!!!!

I could see you LYAO with a vivid image of a Rambo movie or something?? this is far fetched in your world... not mine...

Hog

well, wagner, we could discuss this in a civil manner, or you could continue to be offensively condescending. either way, i continue to disagree with you. do you honestly believe that the government will turn its military against its people in a national revolution? do you actually believe it would ever get that big? do you also believe that the military would support such a campaign? i'm not talking about the generals, by the way. i'm talking about the war fighters that drive the tanks, fly the planes, and carry the machine guns. the whole scenario sounds a little far fetched to me. i don't believe most citizens and military members are as susceptible to blind faith in our government as you seem to think. there are many that support our current administration. i don't think you do. regardless, don't talk to us like we're crazy because we disagree with you. some of us might think you're crazy, but i'm just trying to have a discussion with you. i'm not here to judge or taunt you.

on a side note, my biggest reason for owning a gun is home protection. i do fear for the safety of me and my family. i do believe owning a handgun could someday save my life. i hope i never have to use it for its intended purpose, but if i do, i hope it serves its purpose well.

Wagner,

You're comparing insurgents in Iraq to the citizens of the United States?

The Iraqis lived under dictatorship and religous zeal, not only with Hussein, but for centuries. This was their example of normal everyday life. The general populace in Iraq was unarmed and uneducated for the most part. Due process was unheard of. Speak against the rulers - be buried before sunset.

Here in the US, does that apply? No. So how can you say that what's happening in Iraq applies to how we would handle the situation here? Here in the US there are 80 million gun owners. If only 10% responded, you have 8 million armed citizens. If they're forming an armed response, they're serious folks.

Now, consider what MACS(SW) said. Is he a minority nut case? No. He's a dedicated and intelligent man. He protects our way of life with his own life. I left the Marine Corps (which I loved more than my family) because I was not willing to serve under the Clinton administration and it's ridicuous policies regarding the military. If I were ordered to betray the Constitution, I'd take action against illegal orders. Same goes for most of my former brothers in arms.

The most important thing you're overlooking is the heart of the warrior. He will not turn against the people he protects. It's his family, his home, his country and his way of life he would desecrate by turning on them.

Think about it.

E4A

Lofty:

To answer your question-no, I don't think we are currently in danger of the government turning its might against us. But that is exactly what others such as Hog are using as an argument to support gun ownership. I am merely trying to point out how rediculous that proposition is. Handguns and rifles would prove futile against such a powerful adversary.

mo man talked about how "liberals" are shirking their responsibilities. The man's thinking just doesn't make sense and he does not/cannot back up his statements with facts.

I realise I have been condescending, but really this hasn't been the most intelligent of conversations.

By the way I am personally in favor of gun ownership.

Wagner

Another thought:

When the blackhawk comes swooping down on you firing missles your going to hold it at bay with a handgun? Now I am laughing my ass off. I would pay to see that one!!!

No but my friends will avenge my death and take up arms to oppose the enemy by what ever means necessary..

Just like in the American Revolution when the armed British troops shot down unarmed Americans

who were out numbered and out gunned. Remember who won and at what cost

Or do you just take your freedom for granted and roll over and give up when it is taken away?

Oh I forgot ... you already answered. you would be laughing your ass off and paying to see that one

Sounds like you would have made a great tory during the revolution

Well Said Echo!!!!!

"To answer your question-no, I don't think we are currently in danger of the government turning its might against us. But that is exactly what others such as Hog are using as an argument to support gun ownership. I am merely trying to point out how rediculous that proposition is. Handguns and rifles would prove futile against such a powerful adversary.

mo man talked about how "liberals" are shirking their responsibilities. The man's thinking just doesn't make sense and he does not/cannot back up his statements with facts.

I realise I have been condescending, but really this hasn't been the most intelligent of conversations.

By the way I am personally in favor of gun ownership."

Wagner, your an Educated Idiot... I showed you facts that point out what the Clinton Adminstration "Was In Fact" doing and you want to turn it into a Rambo movie with your vivid imagination and scuff it off as such...

the reasons of our second ammendment rights are just as others have pointed out... to keep our government in check and the remainder of that Constitution in tact...

you've been condescending because this is the only way you can have debate with others... look at everyone of your previous posts on this forum and let that Judge you on your character...

maybe this hasn't been YOUR most intelligent of conversations... but it has brought out good discussion with the exception of some examples...

Hog

EI:

These are very different days than those of the revolution. Weapons are very different. The power (military) of the government has grown immeasurably over the past 200+ years, but the citizens still have only handguns. I think the outcome would unfortunately be very different if the revolution were fought today. First of all we would have been carpet bombed just as we did to Germany and Japan. We could not freely communicate because the government would be electronically evesdropping, therefore no coherent force could be assembled. At best it would be a few million random individuals hiding behind trees wondering where the next bomb or missle might come from.

One further thought--you have already willingly given away some very important powers to the govenment by supporting those who in turn supported the "patriot" act. Now even some conservative groups are joining with the ACLA to have these powers revoked.

Why would you grant them such powers and then say you want to fight them with handguns?

Wagner

btw the citizens of Iraq in the last few days have been taking up arms against insurgents and knocking them out of their neighborhoods... this is another major step for their freedoms and rights!!!!

"Threadjack On"

And Also 85 insurgents were WAXED in a raid on a training campin Iraq... I guess Iraqi's military and the US military are tired of hearing about prisoner abuse and have quit taking prisoners?? 85 in one sweep!!!! Wow....

"Threadjack Off"

Hog

Hog:

I know all about Ruby Ridge and I think it was blasphemy for such an act against a nation's own citizens however what you are saying about Clinton is patently false. Here's your statement:

Oh and one more thing... you know what the function of the Clinton Administration and Janet Reno's attempts at the time were??? Disarming Americans.. and not just any Americans... they were pin pointing Christian Americans.... while Osama Bin Ladin was given a free walk!!!

Where did you read such nonsense? Clinton never tried to disarm the population at large. That is sheer propaganda!

Wagner

Hog:

I'm sorry--I didn't mean to make you cry, honest. I was merely speaking in the same tone of voice that you and others, like mo and jon do.

I'll try to be more considerate.

Wagner

How about more meaningful and truthful?

mo:

I will not respond to the voice of hypocracy--find some other way to amuse yorself.

Wagner

usahog

what does the following have to do with gun control:

"Remember Willy Clintons 8 yr raign on America while OSB and Saddam Hussain were still plotting **** against America themselves!!!!"

besides, you shouldn't call the president willy. have some respect for the president like i have towards the moron in the white house now.

Homebrew

mutiny? you will get keel hauled for that.