years ago toby and i visited hearst castle. very nice place, but i noticed the place had none of the

conveniences that we all have now.

it was a very pretty place with things that hearst bought all over europe that had been crafted 1n the middle ages.. nice big pool and an indoor pool with little tiles that was absolutely beautiful.

back when it was being built, even the poor could own a house, not as fancy, but with the same small rooms that hearst had and indoor plumbing.

the difference between the rich and the poor were generally working conditions. there was child labor, barely liveable working conditions, and the poor were generally used as paid slaves to make the rich richer. nothing wrong with entrepreneurship, but if it is on the backs of others misfortunes, it's not really moral.

the southern farmers, before the civil war, were entrepreneurs, on the backs of slaves and we all decided that was not a good thing.

the french and the russians both revolted because they lived under a class of people that took advantage of them. their lives were no more then bare essentials if at all, and absolutely no possibility of improving themselves. there was no way up. the wealthy had the land and the army.

at some point a revolution starts because enough people have gotten together and realized they are all in the same position.

unions started in this country for the same reasons. workers got together and decided they should fight together, strength in numbers. the unions however did not start a revolution as the french and russians did, they started to promote collective bargaining.

the result was the same here as it was in both france and russia, the ruling class, sent the army in to kill the people that were trying to have a better life.

there should have been a difference in this country because we are a democracy. the government should not have sent in troops to kill americans because they wanted to improve their lot in life.

the unions prevailed after many leaders were killed and the need for revolution in this country was avoided. if the unions had not prevailed,life for most americans would have gotten worse and the possibility of an attempt at anarchy would have been a reality.

up until recently, not unlike the hearst house and the poor peoples houses, the kind of roof you had over your head was very similar. the poor had windows, the rich had windows, the poor could flush a toilet, the rich could flush a toilet. bigger windows and fancier toilets, so what, "i can look out of my house and i can **** on a flush toilet."

now the rich have tv and the poor have tv. they have bigger screens, so what, "i can watch the same programs." they have more expensive cars, so what, "i drive a *****, in desert dawn beige with matching upholstery and it is a cool machine. i leased it because the payment were lower,but there she is in my driveway." the people have been bought off, saving the upper class the possibility of mutiny in the ranks.

"the difference between the rich and the poor were generally working conditions," and the cycle is

starting again with a different twist.

there are no jobs. people can't work. people can't take their kids to the doctor because they have

no medical coverage.

the rich live longer and healthier because they can afford the extra medical attention. a complete work up including lab work and the most advanced medical diognostic equipment can be done in one day if you have the $7,000.00 to $10,000.00.laying around. we all know the sooner you can spot a medical problem, the better chance you have of curing it. the rich die of the same things the poor do, but they get a few more years out of life.

where is the usa headed? soon the middle class will disappear and we will have a country owned and controlled by a small percent of the population and a large percent of the population poor, unemployed, and desperate..

vous parlez français

What and where are those guarantees? What makes your values truth?

Mo'sMan

i didn't say these were guaranteed.

isn't this about what jesus preached.

be fair and be good to one another.

Been to Hearst Castle a couple of times, and it is quite impressive, but not sure where you are going with this one Rick!

Charlie

fair and good does not necessitate handouts and health care for free. I dismiss your interpretation as one coming from one who is ignorant of what scripture actually teaches.

A bit more on "Jesus's teachings". Jesus taught many things. You can't over emphasize one at the cost of another. Scripture is also more than just the teachings of Christ. Economically, it has taught responsible capitalism. Hard work and personal responsinbility coupled with caring for the poor and needy. It also taught us to reject free-loaders and he who will not work should not eat. He most likely would have shunned labor unions, government mandated welfare systems, lenient sentences for harsh crimes, anti-corporal punishment groups, etc. He definitely would disapprove of atheism, feminist agendas, abortion, and other various liberal agendas. While I am not saying that Jesus would have been a super-republican, he definitely was not a democrat.

Mo'sMan

jesus was a liberal.

Rick......you're ignorant. But you can offer evidence and that might convince me. Your word makes me cringe.

Rick,

Man, you are a little off regarding unions...........

come to Western PA and check out the employment situation and then we'll discuss labor unions and what they have done to THIS area.

We have hundreds.....thousands of people who are NOT working because they are worth "MUCH MORE" than employers will offer. I talk with them every week when I stop for a beer at the local bar. Many haven't work since the mill shut down................but they still can drink at the bar.

I have hired many "ex-union" employees. Some only lasted a day in an environment where a good work ethic is necessary. The best lasted three months before he "got hurt" and cost our company $120,000 in workmans comp insurance premium increases. He is currently pursuing his dream as a rodeo cowboy while our insurance company pays him a daily stipend.

I WILL say that the unions have done a good job in training and creating good marketable employees, but the cost to hire them and to bring their attitudes into the shop is too extreme.

Rick, you dont even believe in Christ. Why dont you go back to your crappy political posts? When was the last time you went to church, not including weddings or funerals?

You are trying to stir things up again. And your thoughts arent informative, they are insulting most of the time.

It's too bad that you are running out of time, and will die before you grow up...

When you feel the heat... it will be too late...

There are plenty of jobs around here. Nearly every restuarant has a help wanted sign in the window. I also know of several corner stores that are hiring. The temporary companies can get you work nearly every day of the week at an even better pay scale. During this time of year the construction companies are hiring for crews as well as yard work. There are numerous trucking companies begging for drivers in my local paper every day. No jobs?

TrannyMk

i went to synagoge to hear my son sing about a month or so ago.

did it ever occur to you that because you disagree with me doesn't allow you the privelege of acting like a complete ass.

you are part of a group that disagrees with me. you all have one thing in common, you are all common.

is that the christian fundamentalist's approach to what they don't agree with or is it your little tribe that doesn't understand your religion or is it the simple vulgar stupidity of common people.

many christians on the board disagree with me, but they don't stoop to the gutter level you and those like you do.

feel free to ignore anything i post. my posts are for people who can handle big words and ideas, whether they agree with my nonsense or not.

i have never heard a bunch of "christians" speak with such vile tongues as you and your tribe do.

"running out of time" you are less then you might have been and more of what you are then you will ever understand.

go smoke a cigar. (this is a cigar site after all)

Jesus Was a Liberal . . .

Yo Rick:

So how much time do you think you have left as I would like to get my shots in before you a go go.

JonR

andytv

i was describing the birth of unions not what some workers might have become.

if unions never started, some of the people you are talking about would probably be just as bad as workers.

for me the work ethic is what a person is.

my neighbor is a union leader. i don't know his title or rank or whatever, but he works with the union for the dept of water and power in ca.

i remember a strike years ago and after it was over it was discovered that management had spent a fortune in catered meals and charged it all the the DWP.

it is still better to have a few stupid or worthless employees then the old ways. the old ways are only 60 or 70 years ago. a short time in history.

try not to forget children working 12 hours a day or the women locked in the sweat shop in new jersy that died in a fire.

keep a balance in your soul, and do the best to hire people that will do a days work.

Rick...

Did I hit a nerve Rick? That's what it's like to read your garb. Things can get to you and it's obvious I did get to you...

You should quit using religion as a toy in your little internet games. It's offensive to people who dedicate their lives to it.

I'm sorry that I upset you, but you upset me 1st with your lack of respect for Jesus. You will never understand as a non believer...

TrannyMk

no you didn't hit a nerve, i was just pointing out something. but the language and the arrogance of "christians" on this board is demeaning to real christians. my daughter in law is a born again christian and she and i can discuss so many things about her religion without her feeling threatened and resorting to vulgarity and dumb ass stupid responses so prevelant on this board.

we both understand where we each are coming from and both of us respect each other's view points. she is so much more confident of her beliefs then most every

"you are a godless no goodnik" poster, and certainly smarter.

just for your information, i have more respect for the man called jesus, then christians do.

christians see him as being resurected and sitting next to god in heaven. granted he suffered before he was crucified, but he was resurected none the less and lives in a nice house in heaven surrounded by angels.

my respect for jesus is the respect for a man who gave all he had for his fellow man. he suffered and was murdered for what he believed in. no reward in an afterlife in heaven, no nothing but a horrible death.

I agree with Rick.

I also agree with many of my fellow entrepreneurs who say that the middle class is shrinking. However, the number of millionaires in this country is also decreasing (approx. 100,000 fewer) from the numbers in 2003.

We are living in a strange time of smoke & mirrors.

Our false appearance of affluence is being aided by our mass consumption of cheap goods from the developing world and our access to low interest credit lines. All of this will come to an end in our lifetime.

Our trade imbalance & deficits will be our economic death knell.

C'est la vie.

Rick said.......just for your information, i have more respect for the man called jesus, then christians do.

Of course. You have met and know the heart of every Christian. What an arrogant statement.

There are several inaccurate statements in Rick's initial post in this thread. The degree of harsh invective directed at Rick by Mo and Tranny is, IMHO, however, unconscionable.

C'mon, disagree, but don't insult. When you disagree, document your point of view. Rick offered nothing concrete to justify his statements. That doesn't give anyone license to being rudefully insulting.