"Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion." -- John Adams (letter to Benjamin Rush, June 12, 1812)

A few quotes from George Washington.

"Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. "

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”

--George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

Don't misinterpret my cut-and-paste as my personal views. I just wanted to show an opposing viewpoint for discussion.

'Gater

Good quotes Gater and no offence taken. It was actually somewhat of a sarcastic post as John Adams supported (more than he opposed) our government being a christian state. I think the point of Adams' quote was that in order for religion to prosper under our system of government, government must not interfere with religion. Adams doesn't comment on religion interfering with government.

Now personally I think that religion is personal and I don't want it anywhere in our government. I think that the separation of church and state is for the mutual protection and benefit of both.

I just thought that it was an interesting quote coming from Adams.

Buck...you understand the premises for the seperation. There are those that believe it's there to hinder a person's belief and not a government sponsered religion like The Church of England.

Live and learn, and our Founding Fathers did.

FWIW...most were Deists.

From Alex Friedman of the Rand Institute...."The Founding Fathers repudiated state-sponsored religion by establishing a government devoted solely to the protection of individual freedom, in which religion is constitutionally relegated to a private matter. The value of keeping religion out of government is not simply that it leaves people of various religions free to say the prayers and practice the rituals of their choice; more fundamentally, by prohibiting the government from forcing people to support or obey the dictates of religion, it protects freedom as such."

Good points all. DrMaddVibe, I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to say most were deists. I think it would be more accurate to say, some were deists. Most notably Jefferson.

I actually will go so far as to say that our nation was founded on christian ideas and morality. Just as the founding fathers drew from the Greeks, Romans, Europeans, Natural Law, Plato, The Code of Hammurabi, Jewish Law, etc, etc, etc... That doesn't mean that we need to force Greek, Roman, etc... belief structures down the throats of our children.

I would much rather have christian belief structures shoved down my kids throats (which have a founding for morals and ethics) then have some other kid shove a 45 in his face and pull the trigger??

Hog

Wow hog, there is so much wrong with that statement, That's like asking,"Would you rather have sex with a man, or slid down a banister of razor bladed?"

wow, cexshun, you can equate christian recruiting to being shot in the face with a gun? i'm no christian, either, but that's going a bit far.

cexshun... please explain?? hurry tho because recess for Muslim children starts very shortly and there has to be quite time for prayer in school....

I Pleadge Allegiance to the Flag, One Nation Under God... oOHh wait... scratch that... Ala is Great and All Mighty!!!!!!!!

I'll take the razor blades thanks ;0)

Hog

Actually Hog, I'd rather have my son standup for his convictions than be forced into practicing something in which he didn't believe. Now if that means that someone could shoot him for standing up for his beliefs then your comment makes some sense and I agree with it (even though I hope that he/we never has to face that kind of test). If this is not what you are talking about then I'm lost. Please clarify your point.

lofty1, I'm all confused now. I didn't equate those two, hog did.

Hog, here's a better representation of what you said.

"Would you rather eat chocolate ice cream (when your favorite is vanilla), or watch you wife get raped?"

You just can't compare the 2. It's an inaccurate analogy. But to take your questions head on, I prefer to teach MY children about spirituality. Not you, not lofty1, not RICKAMAVEN, not the Pope. The government belongs in my spirituality as much as it does what I have for dinner.

Hog, you surprise me sometimes. For someone who stands up for freedom, justice, and liberty, you seem to want the government to regulate everything to your morals. You are an impossible person to read! Just an observation, not an attack.

cexshun

some heavy company you've put me in.

my take on morality is kind of simple.

don't lie or cheat. it's not good to hurt someone.

if you think you can help, help.

always share.

Rick, I put you in there on purpose to show that I don't care what your spiritual beliefs are, you cannot and will not teach my children those ideals. That is my job.

No cexshun.. I don't like to see double standards...

We America see(use)the Governement as a tool... when we had religion in school and the Golden Rule... we forced it out through the court system... nowadays all you hear about is whats going wrong with our school system and our children?? well for one thing.. the principal is not allowed to crack the kid on the ass when he/she is F*cking up... and saying the Pledge because "God" was a refrence in there was Wrong!!!!

But yet now it's before the courts and may have passed?? to allow Muslim children their hour breaks during class time to pray to Ala... and we Americans see nothing wrong with this picture because we would be infringing upon these childrens rights? what about the Christian Childrens rights who get suspended for praying before eating their lunch? it's called Double Standard...

I commend you on your upbringing of your children about spirituality.. but what about your neighbors kid who goes to school with your child?? do you have to worry about this kid finding the crack dealers gun and packing it along in his bookbag for show and tell?

what I am refrencing to is when the System went south for our Children.. allot of them didn't get spiritual guidence at home and it was respected in schools as a known...

We the People voted this out of our school systems (no Majority did) and Christians went along with it...

I'm not hard to read cexshun... just take a look at how this country was founded and you will see where I'm coming from as far as my Christian Beliefs, Morals and Ethics and also my Patriotic ways....

Hog

No cexshun.. I don't like to see double standards...

We America see(use)the Governement as a tool... when we had religion in school and the Golden Rule... we forced it out through the court system... nowadays all you hear about is whats going wrong with our school system and our children?? well for one thing.. the principal is not allowed to crack the kid on the ass when he/she is F*cking up... and saying the Pledge because "God" was a refrence in there was Wrong!!!!

But yet now it's before the courts and may have passed?? to allow Muslim children their hour breaks during class time to pray to Ala... and we Americans see nothing wrong with this picture because we would be infringing upon these childrens rights? what about the Christian Childrens rights who get suspended for praying before eating their lunch? it's called Double Standard...

I commend you on your upbringing of your children about spirituality.. but what about your neighbors kid who goes to school with your child?? do you have to worry about this kid finding the crack dealers gun and packing it along in his bookbag for show and tell?

what I am refrencing to is when the System went south for our Children.. allot of them didn't get spiritual guidence at home and it was respected in schools as a known...

We the People voted this out of our school systems (no Majority did) and Christians went along with it...

I'm not hard to read cexshun... just take a look at how this country was founded and you will see where I'm coming from as far as my Christian Beliefs, Morals and Ethics and also my Patriotic ways....

Hog

Excellent points hog. However, I think we disagree on what's wrong with the school system.

We'll take my home town high school for example. They try to enforce morality as rules. The newest rule is no thong underwear allowed. If they suspect you of wearing thong underwear, you have to 'prove' to the nurse that you are not, or you are sent home to change. Oh, and sweethearts are subject to disciplinary actions for holding hands in the hallway. All of this moral superiority that the school board totes would lead you to believe this is a good school, yes?

How wrong you would be. The school spends so much time concentrating on what's moral and appropriate that only 46% of the freshman class passed the ISTEP test. Yes, less then half are elegable for graduation unless they retake and pass this test. This school has the second largest population in Indiana, and the lowest test scores. Yes, lower then the neighboring town of Gary. The neighboring town that 5-6 years ago had the highest per capita murder rate in the nation. You can imagine how their schools are.

So, you think the schools are concentrating too much on the rights of various minority students. I think it's because the schools forgot why they are there. Whether or not the teach the 10 commandments, their main purpose is to focus on academics, not spirituality or morality. Again, that's my job. I know squat about geology, so they can teach them that. What I do know is what's right for me, my higher power, and my children.

Just an FYI, only about 40% of the population was in favor of the Revolution.

I'm not hard to read cexshun... just take a look at how this country was founded and you will see where I'm coming from as far as my Christian Beliefs, Morals and Ethics and also my Patriotic ways....

Hog

"Just an FYI, only about 40% of the population was in favor of the Revolution."

AVB please point out where you came up with the 40% figure? we at that time had more then 40% of the population in the newly formed Militia... And California wasn't even discovered yet??

Cexshun..

"So, you think the schools are concentrating too much on the rights of various minority students." It's not the schools themselves.. it's the laws that are made up to dictate what the schools can and cannot do... many times in many places you read about how jacked up some laws are made in place... General Guidence and then from there its the PTA meetings anc school staff who iron out the guidlines to coincide with this years new laws and the whims of the community activists...

"I think it's because the schools forgot why they are there."

I agree 100%...

"Whether or not the teach the 10 commandments, their main purpose is to focus on academics, not spirituality or morality."

I never once was tought anything about the 10 commandments in my school years? but morality and ethics have allot to do with Academics and better teaching... when you've got a kid who wants to talk on a cell phone or play pocket Nintendo rather then learn an education... this individual is not only flucking up his education but the surrounding by causing a disturbance in class... when you have a student who tells the teacher to F" Off.. and the teacher cannot do anything about this but send that student to the principals office only to deal with the same the next day.. then there's a problem with the system...setting rules and guidlines to be followed is one way to know that education is going to be tought... there are allot of good teachers out there that are tired of every Jane and Tom wanting these rules changed and every year having to adjust policy to accomodate each and every whim of the local community and still get an education taught to the children...

"Again, that's my job. I know squat about geology, so they can teach them that. What I do know is what's right for me, my higher power, and my children."

I agree and more and more many parents would rather shove money at their kids and expect the school systems to teach them what should have been tought at home (fundamentals, no faith based, or connotations

intended) just basic fundamentals as in respect for others goes along way in the classrooms....

Hog

"Actually Hog, I'd rather have my son standup for his convictions than be forced into practicing something in which he didn't believe. Now if that means that someone could shoot him for standing up for his beliefs then your comment makes some sense and I agree with it (even though I hope that he/we never has to face that kind of test). If this is not what you are talking about then I'm lost. Please clarify your point."

Buckwheat, what I was saying is the double standards that are going on in the school systems and courtrooms today... If Religion is to be taken out of the schools (and it has been) then All Religion should fall under those laws... not pencil whip in a "Well" to accomodate another Group or faction.. I agree 100% about teaching your children to stand up for their convictions...All Parents should do the same... it is a shame that there are many children who go without proper upraising....

Hog