frankj1
6 years ago

How do malpractice suits stack up in those countries? I'm guessing there are much less frivolous lawsuits in those places which add to the cost of doing business. Also while I don't think single payer is the answer but it looks like half the people at my doctors office are paper shufflers. And obviously those expenses have to be passed on to the consumer.

Krazeehorse wrote:


I'm not dead set on any side at this point, but what you point out are more factors as well.
frankj1
6 years ago

I’m sure they lead the world in innovation as well.

ZRX1200 wrote:


I think tw's surgery was developed in France.
frankj1
6 years ago
not sure what Insurance companies have to do with innovation in medicine either...other than making it out of the reach of most.
frankj1
6 years ago
so I read this Opinion Piece in The Boston Globe before Warren foisted her plan to pay for hers, and though I am certain I will learn of many flaws here I am equally certain there's a lot of solid points being made...at least enough to discuss, not to cave in, but to look at the natural fears we capitalists have and a possible consideration of an upside to bettering a money draining runaway system we now have...
again, I'm not married to what is below, but at least it got me thinking without the dogma handicapping both sides.


Opinion: Paying for ‘Medicare for all’? No problem
Wealthy countries that have universal coverage spend far less on healthcare than the United States and get better health outcomes. 
(Joe Raedle / Getty Images)
By STEPHEN MARKS
OCT. 24, 2019
 
3 AM
Democratic presidential candidates Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have struggled to explain how they would pay for “Medicare for all.”

This is puzzling. A single-payer approach like Medicare for all can reduce overall health spending. Other wealthy countries that have universal coverage spend far less on healthcare than the United States  as a share of their gross domestic product. A lack of money is not the problem. That’s why it should not be difficult to devise a way to pay for Medicare for all to benefit the vast majority of us, particularly low- and middle-income earners.

In fact, Canada has such a system, which should cast doubt on all the naysayers who claim that it is impossible or ruinous. Canada, with a single-payer system, spends half of what we do on healthcare and  gets better results. Britain, France, Australia and Japan, all with universal healthcare, also  spend less than half of what we spend per capita and get better results.

Medicare for all is widely expected to cost about $3 trillion a year. The government — through Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, and various other programs — already pays  more than $1.5 trillion of this healthcare bill. Private insurance and out-of-pocket costs account for another roughly $1.5 trillion. Going to Medicare for all would increase the budget of the government by about $1.5 trillion a year.
Here are some ideas on how to fund it:

End the cap on payroll taxes and apply payroll taxes to all income, including interest and capital gains. This will not have a significant effect on anyone whose income is less than $132,900, the current cap, and will raise about $1.5 trillion. Those making somewhat above the current cap will end up paying a bit more, but they will not have to pay health insurance premiums or out-of-pocket medical expenses and will come out ahead.

Large employers now pay on average  $6,000 per employee for individual health insurance and $14,000 per employee for family health insurance. Many smaller employers pay similar rates, as do the self-employed. Let’s suppose that we tax all employers $5,000 per year per employee and relieve them of the burden of providing employee insurance. Most come out way ahead. This raises about $650 billion.

Elizabeth Warren’s proposal of a 2% wealth tax on wealth over $50 million would raise another  $250 billion a year. Her proposed corporate tax on off-shore earnings would raise  $100 billion a year by requiring companies like Amazon to pay taxes on their worldwide income.

Finally, if Canada, spending less than half of U.S. expenditures on healthcare, has better health outcomes, that suggests there are savings to be had. Let’s be conservative. Suppose a Medicare for all system can help the U.S. cut total health spending by 20%. That would save us $600 billion — and still leave us with the highest per person healthcare spending in the world.

If we add all of these together, that would be more than $3 trillion in additional revenues or savings per year, well over the $1.5 trillion in additional government spending necessary to fund Medicare for all.

None of this would increase the burden on the middle class or the poor. Indeed, without insurance premiums and out-of-pocket expenses, their overall costs would fall dramatically. And none of this puts an excessive burden on the rich. Corporations would reap huge savings. And all Americans would get healthcare, with enough left to invest in other health, wellness and education programs.

These are just a few ideas, and others may be even more attractive. These simply demonstrate that we can have Medicare for all without ruining the economy or raising taxes on middle- and low-income earners. Let’s do it.

Stephen Marks is an economist and professor of law at Boston University School of Law.
teedubbya
6 years ago
My surgery was actually invented in Toronto then improved in Cleveland.

Insurance companies and innovation? Um that’s a major swing and a miss.
DrafterX
6 years ago
They found a way to make driving without it illegal... 😟
delta1
6 years ago
it's worth discussing...but we can't have the conversation without the protection of private health insurance...

those who can afford it do not want the same health care coverage as John Q....
frankj1
6 years ago

it's worth discussing...but we can't have the conversation without the protection of private health insurance...

those who can afford it do not want the same health care coverage as John Q....

delta1 wrote:


I do lean this way. But it has to cost me more when uninsured go to emergency rooms for sniffles cuz they have no insurance. And the ER is not the top level of everyday care available, just the most expensive.
We can't afford this to continue, even if medicare-for-all is not the answer.

Warren (I do not want her to leave the Senate) has done far and away the most research on bankruptcy and the surprise is that Trump is not the typical user of this last gasp effort, nor is it the poorest...it's lower and middle income families due to health issues and their costs.

In America? This is shameful.

edit: I have great coverage, love it, want to keep it.
But I'd pay a bit more to fix this for others.
Country over party.
frankj1
6 years ago

My surgery was actually invented in Toronto then improved in Cleveland.

Insurance companies and innovation? Um that’s a major swing and a miss.

teedubbya wrote:


Canada is like French Lite.
Cleveland is like Iraq.
VaMtnMan
6 years ago
If I lived in Canada I would have been dead 2 years ago. I needed a liver transplant and the wait for one in Canada is a lot longer than in the US. I was only given 2-3 weeks to live when I received mine and had been on the list for over 2 years.
ZRX1200
6 years ago
Leave it to the French to save Teedubya.

LeHockey Dad owes us all now
fishinguitarman
6 years ago
Guess who I’m voting for... go ahead n guess
tailgater
6 years ago
Healthcare in America is about what? 1/6 of our GDP? Maybe pushing 1/5?

Now let's ask ourselves an honest question:
What is the least efficient organization in perhaps the world?
My vote is the Federal Government of the United States.


Now, work with me here, let's take 18% of our GDP and let's put it completely under this inefficient umbrella.

Estimates are $92T for Warren's plan?

LOL!

Estimates for Ted Kennedy's Big Dig was $2B.
Ended up 7 times that.

I'm no mathematician, but 7 x 92T is a lot.


I live by the adage of If you think something is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

Uncle Sam should build roads and tanks. They shouldn't be in the insurance business.



deadeyedick
6 years ago
"These are just a few ideas, and others may be even more attractive. These simply demonstrate that we can have Medicare for all without ruining the economy or raising taxes on middle- and low-income earners. Let’s do it."

Stephen Marks is an economist and professor of law at Boston University School of Law.

I just love economics professors. They are so cute while being theoretical.

Why....why.... it's so simple, why didn't we do this years ago? I guess we are just not good enough socialists yet, but we are getting there.

Oh, and Frank, could you get this "economist" to do a little work on that Green New Deal thingy, and tell him to hurry cuz we only gots like 12 years and maybe he could check into that little $30T debt matter. With his math we may all be in line for a big fat rebate check.
frankj1
6 years ago
so again, I don't speak for the guy, even stated I prefer my current coverage.
But we have to talk about some kind of fixes without the knee jerk dogma of profit creates answers.

I find it funny that so many of us state how much it would cost to even tinker with what we have when we are the run away leaders in health insurance cost and don't even have everyone covered.

I'm fairly new on medicare but in the few months I've had it things seem to be as smooth or smoother and cost me less.
tailgater
6 years ago


But we have to talk about some kind of fixes without the knee jerk dogma of profit creates answers.

frankj1 wrote:



Or the knee jerk dogma of "the government will fix this"

delta1
6 years ago
most advanced countries with modern health/medical care have a combination of universal public healthcare coupled with private health insurance for those who want it and can afford it...

only a few places do not: the Balkans, Belarus and the USA...it's the price we pay for living in the richest country in the world...


what's keeping us from joining the rest of the world? profits earned by private healthcare insurers and providers, which line the pockets of the wealthy and pay for propaganda, lobbyists, elections, and regulations for their own benefit...


read an article about non-profit health insurance and health care providers, compared to for-profit companies:

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-health-insurance-changed-from-protecting-patients-to-seeking-profit.html 
frankj1
6 years ago

Or the knee jerk dogma of "the government will fix this"

tailgater wrote:


I don't know. May not be my job to defend that position.
tailgater
6 years ago

most advanced countries with modern health/medical care have a combination of universal public healthcare coupled with private health insurance for those who want it and can afford it...

only a few places do not: the Balkans, Belarus and the USA...it's the price we pay for living in the richest country in the world...


what's keeping us from joining the rest of the world? profits earned by private healthcare insurers and providers, which line the pockets of the wealthy and pay for propaganda, lobbyists, elections, and regulations for their own benefit...


read an article about non-profit health insurance and health care providers, compared to for-profit companies:

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-health-insurance-changed-from-protecting-patients-to-seeking-profit.html 

delta1 wrote:



I live near Boston.
I have been to hospitals in Boston on more than several occasions.

There is a disproportionate number of vehicles with Quebec license plates.

I would like an explanation for this.



tailgater
6 years ago

I don't know. May not be my job to defend that position.

frankj1 wrote:



indefensible. That's why.

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