jreddoch,

I hope you have pissed everyone off here. Take some heat off me.

List of socialist institutions here: Medicare, Medicaid, Public Library system, Pell Grants, Social Security, Public Schools.

Not a dead idea.

Also, look at how socialistic European countries are (and how the socialistic EU is kicking ass on the world economic stage). You might be surprised. It isn't dead, unless you only look at party politics in the U.S. We're kind of backwards that way, or just dishonest, not calling important institutions what they are: socialist. Look elsewhere...Asia, Europe, Central and South America, Africa. It is completely alive.

I think capitalism is a morally bankrupt system. It has produced inequities of cosmic proportion and very intense poverty in rich nations (the U.S. being a nice example of this). That is moral bankrupcy defined: refusal to help the weak when one is strong. So there!

Plus, the ivory tower rocks. Don't knock it 'till you try it.

John

jd, take a look at your list, not a one of them are a successful example! Anything that is worth a damn has been created and maintained by those that prosper in a capitalistic society.

Points taken. I think the examples you mention are neither truly socialist, nor truly capitalist, particularly the EU countries. Yes the govt. plays a large role, but so does the private sector.

As for medicare, medicaid, et al. They do indeed exist and are based on socialistic ideas. How well they work is another issue isn't it?

The ivory tower sucks. I spent seven years earning degrees. I despised the system and most of the professors. Yes there were some good ones. They tended to be professors of the sciences like physics, genetics, physiology and the like. The Liberal Arts professors always srruck me as folks who felt entitled to blather about their unverifiable opinions. Uniformly left of center, to the point that I could easily predict what they would say about any given issue. What a waste of time. Thank God I realized I was capable of picking up a book on any given subject and reading it without a professor telling me what to think of Twain's symbolism or whatever.

"Culture is an instrument wielded by professors to manufacture professors, who when their turn comes, will manufacture professors" -Simone Weil

Thinking a little more about it, somewhere the argument shifted from socialism to socialistic elements of society. It takes me awhile sometimes. Of course there are socialistic elements in society, some of which I've taken advantage of (student loans, bankruptcy) 😞 I never claimed to be a Laissez faire (sp) capitalist. I 'll bet you participate daily in the capitalist economy you claim to loathe as well. I'm all for progressive social reforms. Interestingly TR a noteworthy Republican was the first modern progressive. All that's very different from being a socialist.

Chief Justice Brandeis said something to that effect that the fundemental right of the American people is the right to be left alone. That is my guiding philosophy. For all it's evils and there are plenty, a (more or less) free-market economy and some form of a federal republic is where JR is the most likely to be left alone. I care about that more than any kind of flag waving, churchgoing, philosophizing or anything else. Is that selfish? Yes. Do I feel bad about it? No.

jreddoch,

While I repect your articulations here, I wonder if you understand how offensive (and even naive) your comments about the liberal arts are to me as a person. Or if you care. I've dedicated my life to understanding the history of ideas and communicating the importance of critical thinking to countless students. My society doesn't value that at all; I get paid very little, given that I have the highest degree attainable in this world. And, as evidenced by your comments, I don't even get an inkling of respect from my fellow citizens. That's ok, though, I do it for the love of teaching and ideas, and the feeling of connection to students.

The notion that the liberal arts are bull**** is pretty sad and reflects where U.S. is on the world cultural map. What is a society without philosophy, literature, art, etc.? There is no society in history that hasn't produced what we call the 'liberal arts.' If you don't like them, fine. I don't care for science. I always found it boring. But that doesn't mean I think it is bull****. Let someone else do it, and I know it is important and valuable.

It is a sad commentary on us as a culture if the only things of value are 'useful' at a personal level. Sometimes useless things are the most important parts of life, like reading poetry or having a conversation about the meaning of life or the meaning of beauty. Damn...even smoking a premium cigar with a friend!Sorry if that stuff isn't helpful to your everyday concerns. It isn't supposed to be. It is supposed to be about our inner life, that part of us that isn't bought and sold on the open market.

Do you hate the liberal arts because you had some professors you didn't like? That means you hate the professors, not the liberal arts. I'd have hoped the professors would train you to make that distinction. For that, I blame them.

I know very few professors who are anything other than moderate democrats or moderate republicans. I know only a few who are radical on the right or left. They're all lukewarm moderates, for the most part. Look up how many professors are unionized. Very few. There is a myth of the 'communist' professors out there. That is totally false. And, further, I've been denied employment opportunities because of my political writings. By other professors! That should tell you all you need to know about the so called 'liberal academy.' Then again, you might cheer them on in this regard...

For the record, my students never know my politics. That's not my job. My job is to get them to think critically by asking deep, enduring questions.

John

I couldn't possibly be happier our president ...

I'm far more pleased with the job he's done than I have been by any other president in my lifetime, which is a longer time than I would care to admit that I'm old enough to admit to ... HST said, after learning the scope of what was planned in the war against Japan, that he felt as if the weight of all the universe had fallen on his shoulders ... he became widely admired for the straight forward manner in which he played the hand he'd been dealt ... JFK had a surprise or two come his way as well, and earned high marks for his handling of the Cuban missile crisis and averting cataclysmic action ... in the 40+ yrs since, no other president has had anywhere near as much land so unexpectedly on him ... IMO, the weight of the events of the past couple of years is every bit the equal of what HST and JFK faced and perhaps we'll come to see it as being far more .... only time will tell.

I'm not prepared to say whether it is a matter of pure blind luck or whether there is an unseen divine hand of guidance that has given us the president we have today, but either way, I'm damn happy that we've got him .... no other candidate for office and no other president in the past 40 years would have been capable of doing as fine a job of playing the hand that fate has dealt as GWB is doing today ...

John, you're right and I'm sorry. As a compulsive reader who places the highest value on autodidacticism I do have a bug up my ass about liberal arts. For the vast majority of students the only exposure they get to ideas is the classes they take. I make no apology for placing a higher value on the sciences than liberal arts, but sometimes I get carried away. For that I apologize. God knows I don't need any more enemies. You're lucky you've found something to do you love. Really, why should you care what I think? No one else does.

Ok. Mag this is for you.

I don't even know where to begin as there are so many flaws in your "friend's" logic.

1) Let's take the President issue. He has a clear case of sour grapes. Boo-frickety-hoo! Life IS difficult. He went to Yale AND Harvard. In my world it means that he spent WAY too much money for an education. If you want to be in Politics then you better have your ass in one of those schools, and it doesn't hurt if your parents went there, and just happen to be a Senator or President. I don't care what his GPA was. It's not that important. Bill Gates dropped out and I don't see him sobbing about it! While GW's not your favorite it's VERY hard to find another President that scored above 80% in public approval polls. Polls are polls, but how else have we measured their ratings.

2)Socialist? Give me a break. Put down the Marx books and look around you! Socialism is some twisted demensia world where Orwell wants to take us! Government intrusion in every facet of every day life. There's NO freewill there! I thought it was comical that you accused me of being a Fascist for telling you to shut up, when every single Socialist nation was birthed from a Fascist ruler! History shows us that it's just a big slop bin where everyone does what the government decides and everyone blindly goes along with it! If that's you're "Utopia" then by all means leave the US, because it's not going to happen here!

3)Socialist programs? Medicare, Medicaid, Public Library system, Pell Grants, Social Security, Public Schools? All of these are paid with your tax dollars, either locally or federally. Some shouldn't even exist! Medicare,Medicaid, and Social Security are government entitlement programs that are dismal failures! I for one would love to bail on those 3 and pocket the money! Why should I have to keep putting money into a cleverly devised Ponzi scam! I'm never going to get what money I put in back. The role of government isn't to be my babysitter! That's not in the Constitution!

4)"Refusal to help the weak when one is strong." Name another nation that gives and gives and gives and asks for nothing back. Every country that we've helped has always done the opposite(except Israel!), and burned our flag, and effigies of our leaders or committed acts of terrorism against us, our embassies, our military or our citizens.

I hope you do keep your political beliefs to yourself in regards to your classrooms.


Good enough for you Mag? I hope your "friend" pays attention.

jreddoch,

Sniff sniff...

I care 'cause I'm sensitive.

A debate is only fun and productive if people push the envelope, so no need to apologize.

John

DrMaddVibe

I really didnt think you would take my advise!

You have done well! This is what I feel you should have done in the first place. You and I have many of the same views on politics, from what I've seen.

I thank you for not ripping me for asking you to debate John. Like I said, his political views I dont share, but I do respect and like him.

Mag

Dr.Vibrator,

I love you, man. Relax.

This is an unfortunate equation: socialism = fascism.

You'd be surprised, perhaps, to find that all fascist states define themselves in opposition to socialism. Maybe you mean dictatorships, which are diametrically opposed to socialism. Socialism is fundamentally democratic; socialists want to democratize the workplace by making workplaces worker-owned, thereby taking away the hierarchy of owner-worker that disempowers the worker. State-power is to be decentralized, not consolidated, so the examples you give are counter to the spirit of socialism. I'd recommend Kai Nielsen's work on democracy and socialism. Like it or not, he makes a compelling case for socialism as the fulfillment of democracy's promises. Worth a read.

I am saddened that you are horrified with the possibility of my sharing socialist ideas with students. The point of an education is to see the world through as many points of view as possible. The end result is that people are able to understand why they believe what they believe better BECAUSE of encountering ideas other than their own. Believe me, students are generally too smart and too independent to follow the dictates of a professor. Good students, though, consider all points of view and form their own views. That's what I think forums like this can be...the exchange of contrary ideas.

Also, having conflicting views doesn't mean you tell the other person to go f*** themselves. One of the true pleasures of life is a good cigar, some coffee, and vigorous debate about the true meaning of political life. Mag might be a conservative christian and I might be a socialist agnostic (not an athiest, actually), but I can see myself smoking a Monte #2 with him, drinking some Irish whiskey, and debating until the wee hours of the morning. Followed by a handshake or hug, a goodbye, and a good time had by all.

Ain't that what democracy is about, after all? People are people, intelligent and engaging. We should affirm that, whatever the differences.

"Cigars and alcohol...bring people together since the beginning of time."

I know you despise me because of my views. You've made that abundantly clear. But, for the record, I don't feel the same about you because you disagree with me. That would be wasted energy, and ultimately an insult to you as a person who has thought out views and the capacity to reason.

(Also...Mag, we should exchange notes on the Monte #2s you got. I smoked mine.)

John

So that means you want off of the Christmas card list?

Christ! will somebody get the proff some cheese and a hanky to go whith this Whine...Why is it most of you liberals start out persecuting someone or something and almost always want to turn these threads into how you are the ones being persecuted?
Get over it already!!! LOL

Wow! I do believe that this is 'the' thread with the most BIG words!

You guys rock!

I am really perplexed by the number of people professing adoration for GWB. I grant you that Clinton had become and appeared very arrogant by the end of his term. Is it that GW looks better by comparison? Yeah, the salutes, the little touches showing caring for people are nice. I don't doubt his sincerity. He's a nice enough guy. The big question though, with any President is: Are we better off now, and will we be better off at the end of his term in office? The previous admin. had a very muddled foriegn policy. The current one is pretty much pursuing foriegn policy as events dictate and as opportunity allows them to further the vision they see for the future. Domestically, I think we are headed for trouble. But then, I'm middle class. Without 9/11 the American people would be pissed off right now. My prediction is that if GW wins a second term, and I think he will, Colin Powell resigns as Sec. State.

John,
Your education shows through in your writing. I wish I could convey my thoughts like you are able to.
But alas, I am a mere engineer. Educated in the sciences.
The problem with your posts is not the style, nor your viewpoint. Rather, it is the content.
You praise the socialistic programs of America, calling them out by name (SS, Medicare, etc) then scoff at them when someone calls your bluff by using these same items as a showcase for the failures of socicalism.
If these socialistic programs are not the "socialism" that you and your pal Kai Nielsen dream about, then what is an example of your ideal?
If it is as simplistic as breaking down company heirachy, then show us a successful example.
Contrary to what the left preach, conservatives do not hate socialism because it helps the weak, we hate it because it leads to complacency and entitlement. In other words: Failure.

xrundog

I'm asuming that when you say we are in trouble domestically, you mean the economy. Saying that people would be pissed at GWB if it werent for 9-11 may, or may not be true.

A big part of the economies downfall is due to 9-11. Look at the airlines, look at cities that are tourist driven economies. They still arent back to normal. Many businesses have closed, to never re-open.

GWB is facing dilemas never encountered before. There is no way to compare him to others.

I think under the circumstances he is doing a great job. Just my opinion.

Mag

God bess you guy,words just want come right now,must be coming down with a cold,eyes are watering terrible.

E,My Grandpa used to tell me, Jimmy it's like this, if they can't baffle you with so called(self important) brilliance they'll try to baffle/deluge you with Bull Sh*t.Grandpa was one hell of an intelligent/experienced man for an immigrant farmer.:0)

Another analogy comes to mind that obviously fits quite nicely in this thread. "An empty can often makes the most noise..."