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Electric vehicles - what does the future hold?
MACS Offline
#801 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,844
Yeah... $3 more a gallon than here in Jax.

It's $3.28 at Costco or Sam's right now.
Brewha Offline
#802 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
delta1 wrote:
I rarely buy something based on anything other than personal need...and definitely not to make a political statement. After much research and deliberation, I've concluded that an EV will NOT be the best car for my needs, at this time. If I was still working and doing a daily 2 hour commute, I would've bought one by now. Have you seen the price of gas? $6.39/gal premium here in Corona...yikes

But a daily commute is not my primary reason for a car. Now I like to go on long road trips, often off the beaten path. Having to rely on charging stations that are rarely off the beaten path, that are susceptible to vandalism and lack of maintenance, that may be beyond the driving range of my car, forcing me to re-route in order to re-charge, along with having to stop every 3-4 hours for 30-120 minutes to recharge will take the pleasure out of pleasure trips. I'll stay with ICE cars until the EV battery technology and recharging infrastructure improves to be comparable to refilling with gasoline.

Although I may rightly be accused of being a tree hugger who cares about the environment and the condition of the home we leave for future generations, especially our kids and their kids, I am not so committed to those causes that I believe my personal life style choices make any difference. But I will continue to support and advocate for general measures to care for our planet. Even so...I'll have a double thick ribeye steak, please.


Agreed - not the right solution for everyone - today.

But is a few years, you too could be be paying only 20 cents on the dollar for e-gas.
delta1 Offline
#803 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,819
I hope you're right, Brew...
HockeyDad Offline
#804 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
(Brewha doesn’t know how high electricity rates are in California!)
delta1 Offline
#805 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,819
will def crunch the numbers for cost comparison if I consider buying an electric vehicle...

Pretty sure we'll still be in CA...our home solar panel system produces more electricity than we use, providing an annual credit/surplus for which the state doesn't reimburse...I'm pretty sure that will still be the case in a couple/few years, so using our surplus electricity to charge an EV for little cost could be a tipping point...have to see what remote charging fees will be, and whether those rates are tethered to time of day (tiered pricing), making overnight charging much cheaper...
Brewha Offline
#806 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Wow! Charging free at home (you reading this HD?) - you have my envy!

No monthly gas bill or oil changes turns into some real coin. Especially year over year.
I’d keep my eye on the numbers. And you can see the Tesla charger locations on line (all the EVs are moving to their chargers).

I will tell you after a year of ownership, I’ll never go back to gas.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#807 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
New $4B Panasonic electric vehicle (EV) battery factory in Kansas requires so much power that the facility will need its own COAL plant to run


A coal-fired power plant in Kansas that was slated for closure will remain open after all to provide needed power for, wait for it: a new electric vehicle (EV) battery factory producing "clean" energy storage products.

In accordance with the Biden regime's ongoing efforts to force all Americans into an EV, Panasonic has built a $4 billion EV battery factory in the small Kansas City exurb of De Soto.

Local media reports state that the factory will require anywhere from 200 to 250 megawatts of electricity to function. This is roughly the amount of power needed to keep the lights on in a small city.

On track to receive a whopping $6.8 billion from fake president Joe Biden's Inflation Reduction Act, Panasonic is proving once again that in order to create "clean" energy, you have to burn a lot of "dirty" energy, rendering it a pointless endeavor.

The amount of energy the new Panasonic EV battery facility needs is so high, in fact, that a representative from Evergy, the public utility serving the factory, testified before the Kansas City Corporation Commission that there are serious "near-term challenges from a resource adequacy perspective."

Put another way, the Panasonic EV battery factory in De Soto is an energy hog of epic proportions. As such, Evergy says it will have to continue burning coal at a nearby power plant in Lawrence that was previously slated to eventually transition to natural gas production.

Environmentalists furious that coal plant will have to remain open to produce Panasonic's EV batteries

As we have been telling you, there is nothing "clean" about producing "green" energy products like EV batteries. In fact, it actually takes a much greater toll on the environment to produce EV batteries and other EV components than it does to continue building and using traditional gas-powered vehicles.

"A 15-pound lithium-ion battery holds about the same amount of energy as a pound of oil. To make that battery requires 7,000 pounds of rock and dirt to get the minerals that go into that battery," reports Cowboy State Daily. "The average EV battery weighs around 1,000 pounds."


"All of that mining and factory processing produces a lot more carbon dioxide emissions than a gas-powered car, so EVs have to be driven around 50,000 to 60,000 miles before there's a net reduction in carbon dioxide emissions."

In other words, as increasingly more EV battery and other EV product factories get built across the U.S. to accommodate the Biden regime's "green" pipe dream, the environment will become more and more destroyed, which has left many environmentalists feeling betrayed as they recoil in fury.

Testifying before federal lawmakers and members of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in Washington, D.C., recently was American Coal Council CEO Emily Arthun, who spelled it all out with clarity.

"I met with senators and representatives who understand that we're going to need coal for far longer than people are talking about," Arthun said, explaining that the "green" energy industry requires massive amounts of "dirty" energy to stay afloat.

"People are starting to understand that energy needs are increasing, and these premature [coal-fired power plant] closures are a liability."

Rep. Cyrus Western (R-Wyo.) said much the same to Cowboy State Daily, stating that "kilowatts don't just fall out of the sky."

"That electricity has got to come from somewhere," he said. "It's not going to come from solar farms and wind turbines."


EVs like those sold by Tesla are a scam. Learn more at GreenTyranny.com.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-09-26-panasonic-ev-factory-kansas-power-coal-plant.html


Meanwhile over at the Big 3...the unions are fighting for 32 hr work weeks, 40% more pay all while management is trying to kill off ICE's like Fuehrer Biden and the DNC are enabling them. This while the public demand has soured on EV ownership. What....could...go...wrong....
delta1 Offline
#808 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,819
this article says EV sales for the first half of 2023 is up 47% over last year, so demand is not dropping, in most of the world...figures are attributed to Kelley Blue Book

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/27072023/inside-clean-energy-ev-supply-demand-lower-prices/#:~:text=In%20the%20first%20half%20of,and%203.1%20percent%20in%202021.
HockeyDad Offline
#809 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
Yup, dealerships can’t even keep EVs in stock. People are just stampeding to get EVs because of the free green electricity.
Gene363 Offline
#810 Posted:
Joined: 01-24-2003
Posts: 30,852
HockeyDad wrote:
Yup, dealerships can’t even keep EVs in stock. People are just stampeding to get EVs because of the free green electricity.


Rimshot!

Do any dealers have anything in actual stock? Most of them have customers on waiting lists and manufacturers have lots full of new cars waiting for critical parts before they can be delivered.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#811 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
delta1 wrote:
this article says EV sales for the first half of 2023 is up 47% over last year, so demand is not dropping, in most of the world...figures are attributed to Kelley Blue Book

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/27072023/inside-clean-energy-ev-supply-demand-lower-prices/#:~:text=In%20the%20first%20half%20of,and%203.1%20percent%20in%202021.



Uh oh...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/tesla-delivers-435059-vehicles-q3-missing-estimates-blames-planned-downtime

Look out below!
Brewha Offline
#812 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Uh oh...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/tesla-delivers-435059-vehicles-q3-missing-estimates-blames-planned-downtime

Look out below!


Tesla is retooling for the Cybertruck production and the new upgrade of the Model 3.

The Cybertruck set the record for the most pre-ordered vehicle in history - Almost two million reservations.

And the Tesla Model Y is the highest selling vehicle the world - beating out gas Toyotas.





So the "look out below" is the Big Three crapping their pants......
DrMaddVibe Offline
#813 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
Tesla is retooling for the Cybertruck production and the new upgrade of the Model 3.

The Cybertruck set the record for the most pre-ordered vehicle in history - Almost two million reservations.

And the Tesla Model Y is the highest selling vehicle the world - beating out gas Toyotas.





So the "look out below" is the Big Three crapping their pants......


Only you would care about people crapping their pants losing billions of dollars.

Ya know what you don't see tooling down the road? Ferrari 250 GTO's.

Good luck with your trendy little fart car. Is it true it can go 6 covid vaccinations an hour? I bet all the little Kardashians can't wait to be seen in the mall parking lots whispering down the lane off to the grocery store.
Brewha Offline
#814 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Tesla, Kia and even Porsche with their EVs have highlighted that the American big three are the portraits of complacency. They could be a decade ahead, but they are a decade behind.

GM just continues to make bad decisions. Making the Bolt an economy car wanna be, stuffing electric motors in legacy designs, and a 3 ton Hummer EV. Ford does better, but Dodge is still “thinking” about EVs. They just don’t like new technology.

Btw, Ferrari sucks.




Oh, and you just enjoy your Fred Flintstone mobile.
Yabba dabba do!!
delta1 Offline
#815 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,819
fossil fuel and Big Three American auto industry propaganda machines are relying on their willingly uninformed base of supporters to keep swallowing their misinformation, disinformation and distortions to provide them cover so they can maintain the status quo as long as possible while they keep their coffers filled...

meanwhile a peek behind the curtain reveals internal documents acknowledging their role in environmental destruction and the need to take risk management action while continuing the public subterfuge campaign...here's one example:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/01/harvard-led-analysis-finds-exxonmobil-internal-research-accurately-predicted-climate-change/#:~:text=The%20researchers%20report%20that%20Exxon,would%20lead%20to%20dangerous%20warming.
dkeage Offline
#816 Posted:
Joined: 03-05-2004
Posts: 15,156
How do they get the electricity?
delta1 Offline
#817 Posted:
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,819
mostly using fossil fuels...of which the exhaust is cleaner than that produced by ICEs

the environmental savings are from the unused/unburned fuel of the EVs vs ICE vehicles that have long life spans producing exhausts
DrMaddVibe Offline
#818 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
"Midnight Massacre": Tesla Slashes Model 3, Model Y Prices Yet Again



If ever there was a shred of doubt about Elon Musk's intentions to move more volume at lower prices for Tesla this year, those thoughts should officially be put to bed.

Tesla shares are dipping slightly lower on Friday morning after it was reported late Thursday night that Tesla would be making even more price cuts to its Model 3 and Model Y vehicles.

The new cuts to model prices are as follows:

Model 3 Now $38,990 From $40,240

Model 3 Performance Now $50,990 From $53,240

Model 3 Long Range Price Cut To $45,990 From $47,240

Model Y Long Range Now $48,490 From $50,490

Model Y Performance Now $52,490 From $54,490

So far, the price cuts have been a winning formula for Tesla, allowing the automaker to remain at the tip of the demand spear in a global EV race that is now beyond super-saturated with competition.

The price cuts come just days after Tesla missed its modest Q3 delivery estimates. In Q3, the company delivered 435,059 vehicles and produced 430,488 vehicles, missing consensus delivery estimates of 456,722.

The quarter marked the first sequential drop in total deliveries since Q2 2022. Prior to that, the last sequential drop in total deliveries occurred in early 2020, as the chart below shows.

The company acknowledged the miss and chalked it up to downtime, stating in its press release the "sequential decline in volumes was caused by planned downtimes for factory upgrades, as discussed on the most recent earnings call."

CEO Elon Musk had said on the company's last conference call that it would “continue to target 1.8 million vehicle deliveries this year.” However, he also warned about production numbers dwindling due to "summer shutdowns for a lot of factory upgrades.”

Analyst Gordon Johnson of GLJ Research called the price cuts a "Midnight Price Cut Massacre" in a note out Friday morning, and suggested that the Q3 miss was not due to line upgrades, but rather due to lack of demand.

"Tesla is already resorting to margin-destroying price cuts just five days into the fourth quarter of 2023," he wrote. "Despite selling only 4,500 more cars than it produced in the third quarter and entering the fourth with a record inventory of 106,000 cars, it's clear that Tesla's issues rest mainly with lackluster demand."

"This means to hit its goal of 1.8mn cars produced in 2023, Tesla may have to sell those cars at negative net income margins," he continued.


Recall, back in mid-September, Goldman had both predicted that the company could lower prices further and questioned whether or not the constant price cuts from the EV leader could take its toll on the company's bottom line. As a result, they lowered estimates.

Analyst Mark Delaney wrote in a note in September: “We believe that Tesla could further lower prices in 2024 to support higher volumes, which we believe will mitigate the EPS benefit from cost reductions.”

The note continued: “We lower our 2023 and 2024 EPS estimates for Tesla, mostly on lower ASPs and, in turn, auto gross margin ex-credit assumptions (driven by lower prices for S/X and, to a lesser extent, Model Y, and partly offset by higher Model 3 ASP assumptions)."

Goldman called the company's price cuts into question, noting they could have a negative effect on Tesla's bottom line, Teslarati reported:

“Tesla materially reduced S/X pricing on 9/1 by 15-19%, and reduced Model Y pricing in China in mid-August (and has been discounting inventory on hand in other markets like the US this quarter). However, Tesla raised pricing on the Model 3 with the refreshed version (Highland) that is now being sold in Europe and China.”

But it wasn't all criticism over price cuts. Canadian VC and self-labeled "SPAC Jesus" Chamath Palihapitiya was out over Labor Day weekend praising the speed and aggressiveness of Tesla's price cuts, which ultimately do seem to be moving metal.

"Some companies cut prices, but most keep prices flat or increase them," he added. "Some companies improve products quickly. But no one has actually given you more for less on such a big ticket purchase so frequently."

Recall, we also noted in August that Tesla had cut the price of its Model S Plaid in China by 19%.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/midnight-price-cut-massacre-tesla-slashes-model-3-model-y-prices-yet-again


Imagine about now Masky McFart Car is wondering how much money he spent vs what he could get the same for now? Rah Rah Rah. New models are supposed to come with pom-pom's and a $25 Starbucks gift card.
Brewha Offline
#819 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
And you don't see the big three dropping prices - in fact the dealer network still practices date rate on pricing.

As Tesla production continues to ramp up, the cost per unit is dropping. And with the giga-press method coming online, cost will drop further. This does not bode well for the big three.


Oh, and DMV - "my car is much better than yours"
Yabba Dabba Doo!
Brewha Offline
#820 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
delta1 wrote:
fossil fuel and Big Three American auto industry propaganda machines are relying on their willingly uninformed base of supporters to keep swallowing their misinformation, disinformation and distortions to provide them cover so they can maintain the status quo as long as possible while they keep their coffers filled...

meanwhile a peek behind the curtain reveals internal documents acknowledging their role in environmental destruction and the need to take risk management action while continuing the public subterfuge campaign...here's one example:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/01/harvard-led-analysis-finds-exxonmobil-internal-research-accurately-predicted-climate-change/#:~:text=The%20researchers%20report%20that%20Exxon,would%20lead%20to%20dangerous%20warming.



True enough - note that our local anti-EV shrill (DMV) see price cuts as a bad thing.......
HockeyDad Offline
#821 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
My Uber to the airport is a Tesla.
DrafterX Offline
#822 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
Does it fart..?? Huh
HockeyDad Offline
#823 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,169
It felt very peppy yet we never broke the speed limit. Typical Tesla.
DrafterX Offline
#824 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,566
Brewha's Tesla makes fart noises... Mellow
tonygraz Offline
#825 Posted:
Joined: 08-11-2008
Posts: 20,298
So does your momma.
Brewha Offline
#826 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrafterX wrote:
Brewha's Tesla makes fart noises... Mellow

It’s the new version of “naturally aspirated”.

Real twenty first century stuff……
Brewha Offline
#827 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
HockeyDad wrote:
My Uber to the airport is a Tesla.

That will be seen as “fake news” by those here that have told us that EVs are “not viable”.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#828 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
That will be seen as “fake news” by those here that have told us that EVs are “not viable”.



Oh, they're viable!

They let the entire world know that inside is an entitled self-serving douchebag driver!
Stogie1020 Offline
#829 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,383
Prior to this past weekend, I had exactly zero actual personal experience with EVs.

This past weekend, I attended a family function out of town and lot's of relatives also attended. At the rental counter, a few of them were told "You can wait 3-4 hours for an ICE rental or take a plug-in now." One person took them up on it. They barely made it to the hotel with all kinds of range warnings, low battery notices, etc.

That one person spent the majority of the four day visit attending to charging, finding (or not) a place to charge, getting rides to/from chargers so she could leave her car to charge while actually, you know, visiting with people, etc. She (and a few others at the start of the weekend) were excited and looking forward to making their next cars plug-in electrics. At the end of the weekend, to a person, they all said "hell no..."
RayR Offline
#830 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,932
Stogie, those uncomfortable EV events are a small price to pay for saving the planet from the existential threat of climate change and preventing human extinction. Brick wall

When the EV “Revolution” Stalls . . .

By eric -October 23, 2023

Quote:
Sales of Ford’s F-150 Lightning are down by almost half; VW’s CEO warns of doom – for VW – if the public can’t be cajoled into buying the EV-only lineup it has already committed itself to. Even Tesla has had to resort to internally subsidizing its EVs in order to sell more of them.

These amount to what cops call clues – that the Great Transition is stalling.

Naturally, it must not be allowed to stall. So says a writer for the car site, Jalopnik – which (oddly) seems to regard cars and those who like them with contempt. The writer – Rory Carroll – says that “allowing the ‘free market’ (bracketed within air fingers contempt marks) to decide if (sic) EVs take off seems a little risky.”

In other words, the people buying cars cannot be allowed to choose for themselves which cars best suit their needs – and finances.

It is not enough – for car journalists (sic) such as Carroll and the people who agree with him – that they are free to choose whatever kind of car suits their needs – and finances. Everyone else must be cornholed into “choosing” – air-fingers-quote marks properly applied – the kind of car that suits them, no matter what it costs us.

This cost is a necessary one, says Carroll – because to not be forced to buy an electric vehicle is like the horror of allowing people to choose whether to wear an idiot rag, aka the Face Diaper that people like Carroll similarly insisted everyone should be forced to wear.

He writes:

“Living through Covid, where Americans more or less chose/are choosing to ignore a pandemic and do little to nothing in response didn’t make me more confident that they’d be inclined to respond when faced with extinction. “

“Faced with extinction”?

More...

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023/10/23/when-the-ev-revolution-stalls/
Brewha Offline
#831 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Oh, they're viable!

They let the entire world know that inside is an entitled self-serving douchebag driver!


careful D, you're envy is showing.....
Brewha Offline
#832 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Stogie1020 wrote:
Prior to this past weekend, I had exactly zero actual personal experience with EVs.

This past weekend, I attended a family function out of town and lot's of relatives also attended. At the rental counter, a few of them were told "You can wait 3-4 hours for an ICE rental or take a plug-in now." One person took them up on it. They barely made it to the hotel with all kinds of range warnings, low battery notices, etc.

That one person spent the majority of the four day visit attending to charging, finding (or not) a place to charge, getting rides to/from chargers so she could leave her car to charge while actually, you know, visiting with people, etc. She (and a few others at the start of the weekend) were excited and looking forward to making their next cars plug-in electrics. At the end of the weekend, to a person, they all said "hell no..."


That's kind of a strange story Stogie.

She rented a car and had to drive 150-250 miles to her destination and never made a 15-20 minute stop at a supercharger?
She was driving 200 miles each day?

Couldn't have been a Tesla - they charge fast and have chargers most everywhere. Where were you guys anyway?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#833 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Stogie1020 wrote:
Prior to this past weekend, I had exactly zero actual personal experience with EVs.

This past weekend, I attended a family function out of town and lot's of relatives also attended. At the rental counter, a few of them were told "You can wait 3-4 hours for an ICE rental or take a plug-in now." One person took them up on it. They barely made it to the hotel with all kinds of range warnings, low battery notices, etc.

That one person spent the majority of the four day visit attending to charging, finding (or not) a place to charge, getting rides to/from chargers so she could leave her car to charge while actually, you know, visiting with people, etc. She (and a few others at the start of the weekend) were excited and looking forward to making their next cars plug-in electrics. At the end of the weekend, to a person, they all said "hell no..."



Well, that contradicts what Brewha is sayin! Kinda is right in the wheelhouse of what I've been saying all along. Wonder who's really right? Bet they wished they'd waited though, and they didn' get the "cool" upgrades that make it fart with White Claw holders all around!!!whip

They're trendy little "look at me" mobiles for the Kardashians of the World.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#834 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
That's kind of a strange story Stogie.

She rented a car and had to drive 150-250 miles to her destination and never made a 15-20 minute stop at a supercharger?
She was driving 200 miles each day?

Couldn't have been a Tesla - they charge fast and have chargers most everywhere. Where were you guys anyway?



All but calling him a liar? We already know YOU are!
Stogie1020 Offline
#835 Posted:
Joined: 12-19-2019
Posts: 5,383
It was a Hyundai EV and we were north of Austin, TX with a lot of highway driving (and stopping) to get places.

Sorry-not-sorry a real world experience doesn't fit your personal narrative.
ZRX1200 Offline
#836 Posted:
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,635
When did the manufacturing impact get removed from standards?

Yup, that’s a thing.

But we’re crazy.
BuckyB93 Offline
#837 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,231
I'm not negative on the whole EV thing, I think it has benefits in certain areas of things. It has it's niche based on current technology but it has a long way to go to be a viable replacement for ICE anytime soon.

For local last mile type of needs it can work but it ain't gonna work for much beyond that at is stands now. It won't work for most of the common everyday folks. You can fill up a gas tank in under 5 min and have the range that beats most EVs plus you find a gas station even in the smallest town in the country. One thing that is not mentioned is maintenance. How many car fix it shops work on EVs? If you live in a large city or the burbs of a large city you can maybe find a couple of them. If you don't you're $hit out of luck.

Battery technology has a ways to go. Infrastructure of the electrical grid to support them has a ways to go. Charging stations have a ways to go. Do we stop working on improvements in these areas? Nope. It will cost billions of dollar to even get it as a viable solution for 98.5% of the people.

Until EVs and all the stuff involved to support them are proven, it should not be blindly mandated by any government to do so. Phase it in as things are proven and support reality. And when I say proven, I mean a realistic proven and reliable alternative,
Brewha Offline
#838 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
Stogie1020 wrote:
It was a Hyundai EV and we were north of Austin, TX with a lot of highway driving (and stopping) to get places.

Sorry-not-sorry a real world experience doesn't fit your personal narrative.


It's true that Hyundai EV's can't use the Tesla supercharger network and what they can use - Electrify America, EvGo, etc - are legendarily bad. Given the car, location and the need to clock hundreds of miles a day that would be a problem.
This is prolly one of the reasons Hyundai is switching all their cars to the NACS (Tesla standard charging) by the end of the year.

Sorry about you friend. Sounds like one bad apple did spoil the whole bunch.
Brewha Offline
#839 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Well, that contradicts what Brewha is sayin! Kinda is right in the wheelhouse of what I've been saying all along. Wonder who's really right? Bet they wished they'd waited though, and they didn' get the "cool" upgrades that make it fart with White Claw holders all around!!!whip

They're trendy little "look at me" mobiles for the Kardashians of the World.


And generally wrong on most everything - but at least you are consistent!
Brewha Offline
#840 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
BuckyB93 wrote:
I'm not negative on the whole EV thing, I think it has benefits in certain areas of things. It has it's niche based on current technology but it has a long way to go to be a viable replacement for ICE anytime soon.

For local last mile type of needs it can work but it ain't gonna work for much beyond that at is stands now. It won't work for most of the common everyday folks. You can fill up a gas tank in under 5 min and have the range that beats most EVs plus you find a gas station even in the smallest town in the country. One thing that is not mentioned is maintenance. How many car fix it shops work on EVs? If you live in a large city or the burbs of a large city you can maybe find a couple of them. If you don't you're $hit out of luck.

Battery technology has a ways to go. Infrastructure of the electrical grid to support them has a ways to go. Charging stations have a ways to go. Do we stop working on improvements in these areas? Nope. It will cost billions of dollar to even get it as a viable solution for 98.5% of the people.

Until EVs and all the stuff involved to support them are proven, it should not be blindly mandated by any government to do so. Phase it in as things are proven and support reality. And when I say proven, I mean a realistic proven and reliable alternative,


All vehicles are application sensitive - You won't win a road race with a pick up truck (although many try) and you can't hall a boat with a Boxter.

Because I have a garage and don't normally drive more than 200 miles a day - I never have to spend 5 minutes at a gas station. Never.

Maintenance is a good point. EV's need almost none compared with ICE vehicles. They don't have a transmission, water pump, belts, need a tune up, oil change...... Really they just need tire rotation and wiper fluid refills. That's about it.
But it's like an Italian sports car; if you live in the toolies, it will be hard to get it fixed if you wreck it.

I do understand the dislike for government mandates - all of them. I do not agree with your assessment of how mature the technology or what it will take to make it a "viable solution for 98.5% of the people".

Anyway - many of the car makers are moving to go all electrice before the few mandates even come into play.
Perhaps DMV would like to tell us how stupid the car makers are now....
DrMaddVibe Offline
#841 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
And generally wrong on most everything - but at least you are consistent!


Such a broad statement. I'm willing that you don't have a shred of proof on what I've posted to make your claim even plausibly true.

Bring it.
Brewha Offline
#842 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Such a broad statement. I'm willing that you don't have a shred of proof on what I've posted to make your claim even plausibly true.

Bring it.


Well, you're right - I don't have a shred of proof on what you have posted - and neither do you!

Was there an actual point of contention, or is this just more DMV angst?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#843 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
Well, you're right - I don't have a shred of proof on what you have posted - and neither do you!


No, there's plenty just on this thread alone. We can dig into any Covid thread as well. It would be tiring on your part.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#844 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Remember...Brewha believes that I'm the only one out there that says this isn't viable.


The Costs & Logistics Of Plugging In EVs Are About To Become Supercharged



U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm gave Americans an unintended glimpse of the future during her road trip this summer touting the wonders of electric vehicles. Far from spotlighting the promise of EVs, her public relations misadventure in Georgia involved one of her staff in a gasoline-powered vehicle blocking off a coveted charger in advance of her arrival, leading to frayed tempers and a local EV owner calling the cops. It was an illustration of the challenges drivers could face as governments push the public to embrace plug-in vehicles.

Hyped as technological marvels, EVs are boobytrapped with a host of inconveniences and tradeoffs. By now many people have heard about range anxiety, exploding lithium-ion batteries, and the environmental destruction caused by global mining for battery minerals.

But another wave of challenges is in the offing as the federal government and state officials pump in billions of dollars to build out a massive national infrastructure of charging stations to power the EVs.

The sheer scale of a charging infrastructure means recruiting retailers and businesses to install and maintain chargers that are expected to lose money in the near future, with some likely to be written off as economic losses.

In California, which is slated to ban sales of new gasoline-powered cars in just 12 years, government estimates indicate the state may need to install at least 20 electric chargers for every gas pump now in service to create a reliable, seamless network.

Massive public subsidies will be a crucial part of this effort because private industry is not willing to take the financial risks of betting on an uncertain future. Government subsidies mean complying with recordkeeping and reporting mandates and making sure chargers are online 97% of the time, while bearing the financial risk of vandalism, mechanical malfunctions, daily fluctuations in electricity pricing, and cashflow unpredictability.

A “net zero” society inherently favors the haves over the have-nots. Renters and low-income families aren’t as likely to own private chargers, and electricity purchased from public chargers can cost five to 10 times as much as charging privately in a garage at home. To avoid penalizing the little guy, federal EV mandates require that 40% of benefits pay for public chargers in disadvantaged areas, while California requires that at least half go to such “equity” communities, where relatively few people currently drive EVs.

The rapid transition from a reliable legacy energy infrastructure that’s more than a century old to emerging technologies in just a few decades will require the buy-in of virtually every American, including relearning driving habits and adopting charging patterns that right now constitute the leisurely prerogative of early adopters and trend-setters.

“We need to make sure the infrastructure is overbuilt, oversupplied and over-capacity so that nobody as a driver gets stranded,” said John Eichberger, executive director of the Transportation Energy Institute, a nonprofit research organization. “When you point out the challenges to a believer or a staunch advocate, well now you’re just being negative, you’re just trying to impede progress.”

The energy secretary’s imbroglio this summer encapsulates the logistical, financial and social challenges that get glossed over in a bid to win public support for creating a carbon-neutral society that could not happen without massive government underwriting. It’s a familiar pattern of selling complicated policies as simple fixes, where the cultural gatekeepers misrepresent EVs as a “net zero” technology, lowball the total land area needed to build out solar and wind farms, and make it difficult if not impossible for critics to question the apocalyptic assumptions and dystopian predictions of climate action advocates.

To curb greenhouse gas emissions, California, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, Maryland, and other states have outlawed the sale of new gasoline cars starting in 2035, and similar EV mandates have been adopted by nearly 60 countries. The Biden administration is spending $7.5 billion on 500,000 EV charging ports as part of the 2021 Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act to boost EV sales targets to 50% of all new vehicle purchases by 2030.

EV sales are creeping up, but nowhere near the ambitious targets set by the policy experts, accounting for under 8% of new car sales in the third quarter, and rising to nearly 10% in September. California is at the vanguard of the nation’s EV transition, with more than 1 million electric vehicles among the state’s 31-million-plus registered vehicles, and EVs accounting for about 25% of new car sales in the second quarter.

California’s forecasts, investments, and challenges show the EV transition in a fuller light. To date, the state has committed at least $14 billion for EV infrastructure development and clean transportation, the money coming mostly from taxpayers. Other contributors include that state’s electric utilities, the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure program, as well as the state’s share of the $14.7 billion settlement with Volkswagen over the Dieselgate emissions cheating scandal.

“With so much money swishing around, especially government subsidy monies, why would anyone really want to sit back and say, ‘hold on a minute’?” said Robert Charette, President of the ITABHI Corporation, a management consulting firm based in Spotsylvania, Va., who writes about EV charging challenges. “The EV transition party is just starting, and no one wants the punchbowl to be taken away anytime soon.”

At some point, EV experts promise, the kinks will get worked out, and EVs will become as convenient as smartphones. But at the present, the EV industry has a classic chicken-and-egg problem on its hands. The current demand for EV charging does not economically justify rapidly expanding the nation’s charging infrastructure, but without an expanded charging infrastructure in place, most people won’t buy EVs for fear of being stranded.

Despite California’s massive infrastructure investment, now totaling nearly 94,000 public chargers, the state has fallen behind its goal of 250,000 public chargers by 2025 – and potentially 10 times that number by 2035, when the ban on new gasoline-powered cars takes effect.

Transition on a Massive Scale

The sweeping societal transition decreed by government fiat puts the onus on government officials to finance the buildout of a charging infrastructure as reliable as a utility service.

“Rarely has a government, at least the U.S. government, banned specific products or behaviors that are so widely used or undertaken,” the conservative Manhattan Institute said in a recent EV report. The report points out that EVs are unlike other emerging technologies that people buy willingly: More than a century ago, “to encourage adoption of the newly invented gasoline-powered cars, governments didn’t have to ban horses.”

The scale of the transition is so immense and involves such uncharted waters that there’s no consensus on the amount of public chargers that will be needed.

According to a California Energy Commission assessment, California will need more than 2.4 million public chargers to accommodate about 15.5 million electric cars, trucks, and buses by 2035. That breaks down to 2.11 million chargers (including 83,000 fast chargers) to support 15.2 million electric cars, as well as 256,000 depot chargers and 8,500 public chargers for 377,000 trucks and buses.

The 2.4 million chargers would serve only half the registered vehicles in the state. Many more will be necessary to complete the second half of the transition, from 15.5 million EVs to more than 31 million EVs by mid-century.

Those chargers will have to be installed at curbsides, parking lots, parking decks, grocery stores, restaurants, convenience stores, big box stores, office buildings, strip malls, shopping centers, movie theaters, and a host of other locations so that drivers always have ready access to plug-in.

By comparison, California now has about 11,000 gas stations, convenience stores, and other businesses that sell gasoline, which roughly converts to about 110,000 individual gas nozzles, according to an estimate by Jeff Lenard, vice president of Strategic Industry Initiatives at the National Association of Convenience Stores. That means the transition from fossil fuels to electrons will require California to install at least 20 EV charging ports for every gas nozzle by 2035.

Not all chargers are equal, so the new EV infrastructure will require significant changes in driving habits. While so-called fast chargers can bring a battery to 80% of capacity in under an hour, most of the new public chargers will be cheaper, Level 2 technology, which provides between 5 miles and 60 miles of range for each hour of charging, and isn’t practical for charging up quickly on a road trip.

What’s more, some of these Level 2 chargers will be “shared private” chargers, meaning that they are available at workplaces and housing complexes, and limited to employees, tenants, and visitors. Today, for example, more than half of California’s 94,000 chargers are “shared private.” As a result, many Americans will likely have to coordinate other activities with publicly charging their plug-in cars, such as shopping or eating out, which becomes more involved than a quick stop at the pump to fill it up.

(The state doesn’t keep track of the estimated hundreds of thousands of private chargers that are typically housed in someone’s garage and operate at 120 volts to provide between 3 miles and 5 miles of range for every hour of overnight charging.)

A High-Risk, Low-Margin Business

For the foreseeable future, chargers are expected to lose money until there are enough EVs on the road to justify the investment.

The cost of building a fast-charging station with four or more charging ports can range from several hundred thousand dollars to more than $1 million, depending on the cost of labor, trenching, and power grid upgrades.

Unlike gas prices, which are relatively stable, electricity prices vary during the day, so that fast chargers are subject to complicated peak demand price fluctuations and unpredictable monthly “demand charges” for the highest level of electricity needed from the local power company. Charging companies, utility regulators, and power companies around the country are trying out various solutions to help charging companies predict their costs in advance, such as variable pricing for customers, so they can manage their risk and set prices accordingly. Future strategies could include on-site battery backup and storage, combined with solar power generation, to shift load and even out demand during the day.

Electric utilities and charging companies are not always allied. Private charging companies sometimes refuse to compete directly against regulated utilities that have guaranteed profit. Last year, in a move to encourage charging companies to invest in the state, the California Public Utilities Commission barred the state’s utilities from participating a statewide five-year, $1 billion EV charging rebate program.

Wyoming officials commissioned consultants to assess the financial viability of chargers in their state, and the consultants said that seven remote sites would be used so infrequently they would lose from $285,000 to $372,000 per site over five years. EV industry analyst Loren McDonald, who is CEO of the consulting firm EVAdoption, wrote an analysis concluding that remote highway sites in states such as Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, and others are not likely to break even for at least five years and possibly 10 years, even with 80% of the costs covered by federal subsidies.

McDonald and Charette both said this calculus is not limited to sparsely populated states, but also applies to “charging deserts” in larger states with large urban areas.

“I think it isn’t just an isolated issue but a larger national problem that is not being fully acknowledged,” Charette said. “Once outside the major travel corridors and urban/suburban areas, independent EV charging stations are not going to be economically viable for quite some time.”

California officials say that chargers operating at convenience stores and other retailers will have to depend on selling other amenities to make money, basically operating as loss-leaders. A 2022 report from the California Energy Commission notes: “Revenue from electricity sales alone is often not enough today for chargers to be profitable, especially for stations with lower utilization.”

The California Energy Commission describes other potential risks, such as state-subsidized, money-losing chargers being decommissioned.

“It is also a risk that chargers are not operated beyond the required term of the agreement if utilization is not high enough,” the report advises. “These risks are higher in areas with lower population density and travel demand.”

In response to questions from RealClearInvestigations, the California Energy Commission said by email that not every charger has to be profitable in order to have a profitable network.

“In addition, profitability of charging in and of itself may not be the primary goal of an installation,” the agency said. “For example, charging installed at a workplace, retail establishment, or apartment or condo building may be part of an attractive package of benefits and to drive customers to shopping centers and restaurants or local residents to parks.”

Among the major charging companies, Electrify America does not publicly report its finances, but EVgo and ChargePoint have consistently reported operating losses and negative cashflows since their founding in 2010 and 2007, respectively, according to financial disclosures filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

“This partly fuels my hunch on why station operators have historically been slow to repair non-working stations,” blogged Chris Kaiser, who leads the EV charging practice for Sona Energy Solutions, a consulting and contracting firm. “If they don't make money on station operations they are better off having a broke station!”

Undependable, Unavailable

Reliability remains a persistent problem, one that will shadow the industry as chargers are built out in remote areas, low-income areas, and other out-of-the-way places.

Tesla’s proprietary charging network, which has operated as a walled garden for Tesla owners, is the notable exception, consistently yielding high satisfaction scores. Tesla’s proprietary super chargers, which number 21,789 ports at 1,968 locations nationwide, are being opened up to non-Tesla owners around the country as the charger industry inches toward standardization. Currently different cars use different apps and networks, creating a replay of the VHS/BetaMax problem.

The federal National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure program, approved as part of the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, requires federally funded chargers to operate at a 97% reliability standard for at least five years. And California’s state-funded chargers would have to operate at the same standard for six years.

As a stand-alone number, 97% sounds near-perfect, until one reads the small print. Downtime doesn’t count if the malfunction is caused by vandalism, natural disasters, power outages, scheduled maintenance or limited hours of operation. Downtime begins when a driver or someone else reports the nonoperational status, not when the charger breaks down. And it’s not clear what the consequence would be for failing to meet the standard, as there is no penalty, likely because imposing additional costs would only increase risks and deter private investment.

Reviewing the public documents on EV chargers evokes memories of neglected and abused public payphones that stood exposed to harsh weather conditions and didn’t produce a dial tone. According to a California Energy Commission report issued in September: “EV charging stations are typically uncovered and unprotected from the elements. Connectors can be bent or run over by vehicles. Cables can be cut as acts of vandalism or stolen for copper. EV charging stations frequently incorporate screens that are necessary for operation, but screens can fade in sunlight, break, or be smashed.”

There’s a huge perception gap on this issue. When EV service providers were surveyed about reliability, they said their equipment works 95%-98% of the time. “The data from the two surveys suggest there may be a disconnect between what drivers are experiencing and what the EVSPs are reporting,” the CARB report drolly stated.

What drivers are experiencing has been abundantly documented. The analytics firm J.D. Power said this year that 20% of all EV drivers reported visiting a charger that did not or could not charge because it wasn’t working or there were long lines. The dissatisfaction rates ranged from 12% in the Cleveland-Akron-Canton area to 35% in South Florida. The firm said the trend is moving in the wrong direction: As more people buy EVs, “overall satisfaction continues to decline.”

A University of California, Berkeley, study last year found similar results: only 72.5% of chargers in the Bay Area were functional. A newspaper columnist in California described the charging experience as miserable. “The misery was meted out in several ways,” he documented. “Charging stations were hard to find. Maps that locate stations were not reliable. Paying for a charge with a credit card often proved troublesome, sometimes impossible. Worst of all, way too many chargers were broken or otherwise out of order.”

He warned of a public backlash against the state’s mandate banning the sale of non-electric cars in 2035 if the situation doesn’t improve.

This year, an exasperated Los Angeles Times columnist declared she’s ready to trade in her EV because charging is such a hassle. She wrote that chargers are sometimes blocked by cars that aren’t charging, exposed to blistering sunlight, charging at lower levels than advertised, or “it may shut off mid-charge with no warning or reason.”

The frustration seems to have no expiration date. As Jonathan Levy, EVgo chief commercial officer, told the New York Times last year: “Where there’s a screen, there’s a baseball bat.”

https://www.zerohedge.com/energy/mega-jolt-costs-and-logistics-plugging-evs-are-about-become-supercharged



LOL!!! All anyone has to do is just look at the costs associated and its a no-brainer. The cost of being Trendy is already in the billions. It's becoming clear at this point that those driving them...there's your Biden supporters!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#845 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
NOT ME DEPARTMENT


Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working



At earnings this week, several auto execs pulled back on EV targets.

Dealers have been warning of slowing EV demand for months.

"This is a pretty brutal space," Mercedes-Benz's CFO said this week.

With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.

Several C-Suite leaders at some of the biggest carmakers voiced fresh unease about the electric car market's growth as concerns over the viability of these vehicles put their multi-billion-dollar electrification strategies at risk.


Among those hand-wringing is GM's Mary Barra, historically one of the automotive industry's most bullish CEOs on the future of electric vehicles. GM has been an early-mover in the electric car market, selling the Chevrolet Bolt for seven years and making bold claims about a fully electric future for the company long before its competitors got on board.

But this week on GM's third-quarter earnings call, Barra and GM struck a more sober tone. The company announced with its quarterly results that it's abandoning its targets to build 100,000 EVs in the second half of this year and another 400,000 by the first six months of 2024. GM doesn't know when it will hit those targets.

"As we get further into the transformation to EV, it's a bit bumpy," she said.

While GM's about-face was somewhat of a surprise to investors, the Detroit car company is not alone in this new view of the EV future. Even Tesla's Elon Musk warned on a recent earnings call that economic concerns would lead to waning vehicle demand, even for the long-time EV market leader.

Meanwhile, Mercedes-Benz — which is having to discount its EVs by several thousand dollars just to get them in customers' hands — isn't mincing words about the state of the EV market.

"This is a pretty brutal space," CFO Harald Wilhelm said on an analyst call. "I can hardly imagine the current status quo is fully sustainable for everybody."

EVs are getting harder to sell

But Mercedes isn't the only one; almost all current EV product is going for under sticker price these days, and on top of that, some EVs are seeing manufacturer's incentives of nearly 10%.

That's as inventory builds up at dealerships, much to the chagrin of dealers. While car buyers are in luck if they're looking for a deal on a plug-in vehicle, executives are finding even significant markdowns and discounts aren't enough. These cars are taking dealers longer to sell compared with their gas counterparts as the next wave of buyers focus on cost, infrastructure challenges, and lifestyle barriers to adopting.

Just a few months after dealers started coming forward to warn of slowing EV demand, manufacturers appear to be catching up to that reality. Ford was the first to fold, after dealers started turning away Mach-E allocations. In July, the company extended its self-imposed deadline to hit annual electric vehicle production of 600,000 by a year, and abandoned a 2026 target to build 2 million EVs.

In scrapping plans with GM to co-develop sub-$30,000 EVs, Honda CEO Toshihiro Mibe said the shifting EV environment was difficult to gauge.

"After studying this for a year, we decided that this would be difficult as a business, so at the moment we are ending development of an affordable EV," Mibe said in an interview with Bloomberg this week.

For some, this pullback is no surprise.

"People are finally seeing reality," Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda said at the Japan Mobility Show, the Wall Street Journal reported. Toyoda has long been skeptical of his peers' pure-electric blueprints.

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10


Imagine the "cost savings" of buying your Trendy McFart Car now? Brick wall Wonder when the govt. subsidy rebeat gets yanked how the sales go then?

Listen to Baghdad Brewha Bob though.Gonz

DrMaddVibe Offline
#846 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
All that gushing talk about affordability and cost effectiveness from Brewha in Texas with EV's....huh....


https://www.texaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf

Weird
BuckyB93 Offline
#847 Posted:
Joined: 07-16-2004
Posts: 14,231
Brewha wrote:
All vehicles are application sensitive - You won't win a road race with a pick up truck (although many try) and you can't hall a boat with a Boxter.

Agreed but current gas and diesel vehicles hit more check boxes for needs and options than EVs. Fact not opinion.

Brewha wrote:
Because I have a garage and don't normally drive more than 200 miles a day - I never have to spend 5 minutes at a gas station. Never.

That is a pretty self centered look at things. Hint, not everyone is like you (thank God). What about the folks that live in apartments, condos, rentals and so on... where can they plug in their car to charge it over night? Who is gonna pay for getting the private apartment building that has 100 apartments put in the numerous charging units for everyone's cars? Where do they put it? One charging unit at every parking spot? Gonna have to runs some more power lines into the apartment complex, condos, rental house to feed the electricity. Sorry honey, can't go grocery shopping, I'm 3rd in line to charge the car. It's a 6 hour wait. So in about 8 hrs, hopefully it will be charged enough to get to the grocery store and get the baby food by midnight. Then Ill have to get up around 4 AM (with a half charged car) to move it so the next person in line can charge their car. Oh, $hit... It's snowing out. We got 6 inches of snow since I plugged in my car. I'll have to shovel out my car from the charging station in order to let the next guy in to charge his car.

Reality... not a dream.

Brewha wrote:
Maintenance is a good point. EV's need almost none compared with ICE vehicles. They don't have a transmission, water pump, belts, need a tune up, oil change...... Really they just need tire rotation and wiper fluid refills. That's about it.
But it's like an Italian sports car; if you live in the toolies, it will be hard to get it fixed if you wreck it.


Do you honestly believe that in the life time of your car the only preventive maintenance is just tires, wiper fluid and windshield wiper blades? You can't be that stupid.

I do understand the dislike for government mandates - all of them. I do not agree with your assessment of how mature the technology or what it will take to make it a "viable solution for 98.5% of the people".
Brewha wrote:

You can disagree, that's fine but the facts are that if we go down that path it's gonna cost a ton of money (where it comes from, I don't know) and decades of time to make dreams into reality.

[quote=Brewha]Anyway - many of the car makers are moving to go all electrice before the few mandates even come into play.
Perhaps DMV would like to tell us how stupid the car makers are now....

Truth be told, many of the car makers are backing off of the electric car thingy. It's not viable in the near future. It's decades away. Be it US car manufactures, German manufactures, Japan manufactures, Korean manufacture.. they know this, common people know this. Fact not opinion. Read up on it. It's all out there.

Until a viable and sustainable system is in place for a reliable EV vehicle and EV support networks it's not gonna happen. Let's fund technology for alternative energy. Again something that is viable and dependable. Let's not bow down to the clowns in government force it upon us when there is no clear path to get there.
Brewha Offline
#848 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
BuckyB93 wrote:
Agreed but current gas and diesel vehicles hit more check boxes for needs and options than EVs. Fact not opinion.


That is a pretty self centered look at things. Hint, not everyone is like you (thank God). What about the folks that live in apartments, condos, rentals and so on... where can they plug in their car to charge it over night? Who is gonna pay for getting the private apartment building that has 100 apartments put in the numerous charging units for everyone's cars? Where do they put it? One charging unit at every parking spot? Gonna have to runs some more power lines into the apartment complex, condos, rental house to feed the electricity. Sorry honey, can't go grocery shopping, I'm 3rd in line to charge the car. It's a 6 hour wait. So in about 8 hrs, hopefully it will be charged enough to get to the grocery store and get the baby food by midnight. Then Ill have to get up around 4 AM (with a half charged car) to move it so the next person in line can charge their car. Oh, $hit... It's snowing out. We got 6 inches of snow since I plugged in my car. I'll have to shovel out my car from the charging station in order to let the next guy in to charge his car.

Reality... not a dream.



Do you honestly believe that in the life time of your car the only preventive maintenance is just tires, wiper fluid and windshield wiper blades? You can't be that stupid.

I do understand the dislike for government mandates - all of them. I do not agree with your assessment of how mature the technology or what it will take to make it a "viable solution for 98.5% of the people".

Truth be told, many of the car makers are backing off of the electric car thingy. It's not viable in the near future. It's decades away. Be it US car manufactures, German manufactures, Japan manufactures, Korean manufacture.. they know this, common people know this. Fact not opinion. Read up on it. It's all out there.

Until a viable and sustainable system is in place for a reliable EV vehicle and EV support networks it's not gonna happen. Let's fund technology for alternative energy. Again something that is viable and dependable. Let's not bow down to the clowns in government force it upon us when there is no clear path to get there.


Let’s talk about “viability”.
For a rich man a Bentley is viable. If you live in a van down by the river, EV’s will never be viable because you can’t afford a car or electricity.
10 years ago there really were no EV’s that a normal person could afford and no charging network. Today there is a growing network and the number one selling vehicle is an EV.
10 years from now the percentage of the population for which an EV is “viable” will be far greater - but never 98.5% - as there are more than 1.5% of the population that won’t be able to afford a car - any car.

Now I don’t think it is self centered to say that I’m a home owner and it works for me. The big shift will be when it works for apartment dwellers - and that day is coming.

Legacy car manufacturers almost never build a ground up new car. So changing over to EV’s is against their corporate culture. And they will stumble and fall some while Tesla and BYD take over the markets.
But people are going to figure out how much better EV’s are. Considering the average intelligence of the consumers - this will take some time.

As far as maintenance, I was speaking of schedule maintenance not repairs. Any car can have a ball joint fail and need repairs. But an EV can’t have a transmission or water pump go bad. Give it some thought - there is far less that could fail. And my maintenance schedule does include servicing the brake fluid and air conditioner desiccant canister - like yours does.
When is your next oil change?
Brewha Offline
#849 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,201
DrMaddVibe wrote:
All that gushing talk about affordability and cost effectiveness from Brewha in Texas with EV's....huh....


https://www.texaspolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/2023-10-TrueCostofEVs-BennettIsaac.pdf

Weird


Wow, so we should stop undoing gas car makers through CAFE? Kewl - sign me up!

As to the rest, I guess my year plus real world cost just don’t look as cool as colored graphes.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#850 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,528
Brewha wrote:
Wow, so we should stop undoing gas car makers through CAFE? Kewl - sign me up!

As to the rest, I guess my year plus real world cost just don’t look as cool as colored graphes.



No, you're ignoring real engineers in a field that you're clearly not. Listing facts. You? No. Your experiences are here are jaded as f@ck. Don't blame me or get it twisted. You don't have any factual proof. You're as emotional as a post partum 1st time mother with your Trendy McFart Car. You espouse feelings, but even Bucky punctured your "zero maintenance" balloon. Its laughable at this point, the degree that you're willing to bury your head in the sand and preach about the viability of EVs. Even the auto makers see what I've been telling you on this thread. They're losing money. Esurping taxpayer funds to prop up an administrations unrealistic CAFE standards so they can ram this crap down your throat. Just like the Covid vaccines...you lept head first into before you ever researched a single side effect. Face it. You're a useful tool of the Biden Administration. A sucker. The emperor isn't wearing clothes, but here you are on yet another thread telling everyone how magnificent they are and you can see them. Describe away. We all see you again, looking as dumb as you did before. Carrying water for a man that cannot walk, talk and feels up little kids.
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