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I merely point out that what we like to claim as a true democracy in Israel is actually much closer to a Jewish theocracy with some resemblance of free elections. Calling Israel a democracy and yet the Jewish state at the same time is a farce. the US wasn't a great place for blacks 200 years ago. Israel wasn't a great place for women yesterday. Saying at least they're better than the Saudis doesn't cut it.

We hate Iranian theocracy who also has free elections, we love Israeli theocracy.....we hate North Korean and Cuban dictatorships yet we love Egyptian dictatorships and Persian Gulf kingdoms. We can't justify giving away US taxpayer money just based on supporting "democracy". We pushed for democracy in Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt and now don't like what we got.

Many laws of the state of Israel are determined by certain sects and majorities' interpretations of religious law. There is also civil law unrelated to religion. That does not me that Israel is not a democracy. It's leaders are elected. Its laws can be changed by its legislature, courts and citizens. Ultimately, the power is in the hands of the people, who elect their leaders. How is that not a democracy or at least the closest there is to one?

We don't hate Iranian theocracy because it is a theocracy. We hate it because that Theocratic leaders' clash with American interests, arm our enemies and our allies' enemies and threaten destruction to them and us. Same goes for the dictatorships you listed.

"Democracy" is the simple, seemingly plausible explanation to the American people for American policy towards other countries. Many, if not most "buy" it. I know you don't. Neither do I. It's a load of crap. It's a cover or a shill, if you will, to get American citizens on board with the plan. We support other countries because they are our allies and we believe we benefit from the support we give now and will in the future. That's all there really is to it. Nothing more. And, when all things are considered, if we get our money's worth, then I don't give a crap who we buy off.

Pushing for democracy is a ludicrous American fallacy. Democracy only works were the culture(s) of the people fit with it. Same with socialism and comunism.

As to the USS Liberty incident, I've read a detailed account of it, and heard it refuted by the victims. Given the choice, and the knowlege of how governments and bureauracracies operate, I tend to believe the explaination.

The israeli government was informed of the Operations of the USS Liberty (an ELINT intelligence gathering ship) in the Eastern Med in waters closly adjoining Israel. The ops were supposed to end on a certain day. the outbreak of hostilities between Israel and her neighbors convinced Pentagon analysts that the Liberty should be extended on station to get a better look and listen to possibly more advanced Russian built communications gear, radars and guidance systems than previously monitored, and notification was sent through channels to the Israelis of the operational extension. "Channels" included the US Naval attache at the US embassy, who seemingly was busy. A day or so after the ORIGINALLY scheduled departure of the Liberty from the Area of Operations (AO) the Israelis noticed electreonic signals emanating from the area the Liberty had been in. Further there were rumors that the Egyptians may be trying to launch coastal attacks from ship based commandos, and using Russian supplied ships to gather intelliegence, aircraft were dispatched to investigate. They located the suspect ship, but noted an American flag at the masthead. Pilots notified their controllers of this. A call was made to the Naval Attache who was asked about the USS Liberty's schedule. Without checking his in basket for recent message traffic he assured the IDF that the Liberty was well clear of the area. The Israelis, suspecting an Egyptian "false flag" operation, made another pass over the ship. The decision was made that regardless of the flag, they had been informed by duly authorized representatives of the US government that there were NO US ships in the AO, therefore the aircraft were given weapons release authority. The rest of the story is a confused mess of Israeli planes passing at high speed strafing and shooting up what they had been assured was a legitimate target, and American sailors trying desparately to wave off an attack by aircraft bearing supposedly friendly markings. In retrospect, it make sound shady, but think about it. I've heard a HUNDRED stories about the run up to Pearl Harbor, about misinterpreted intel, un relayed information, and failures to put 2 and 2 together that make THIS seem clear and concise!

[quote=DrMaddVibe]WONDERFUL point.

People get confused with the terms "democracy" and "republic".

The only thing I'd add to this is that we paid for ours with blood. The crazy expectation that we can somehow "export" Freedom and Democracy is sheer lunacy. We cannot "share" ours. Other nations can model themselves after what we created.

quote]
also a nice point...count me among the lazy using the easy term "democracy". I do know better.
But despite the popular notion of some here, Israel has also paid for theirs with blood, certainly with help too, but lots of blood, repeatedly. Allow me to point out the help America received from France, among others, early on

You are also correct that we can not share nor export our ways any more than a gun can truly change the hearts and minds of others...they must want it badly enough to sacrifice, like the US, like Israel, others may be coming aboard. But they won't know to love it/model themselves after it without exposure to it.

What's the frequency Kenneth?

How to spoil all the upcoming fun...


Leading Iranian cleric calls on regime to avoid war with Israel

Ayatollah Yousef Sanei, vocal opponent of Ahmedinejad, warns regime not to provoke Israel by 'acting as warmongers;' two former ministers call on Supreme Leader to set up new ruling council.

Ayatollah Yousef Sanei, one of the leading Iranian clerics and a vocal opponent of the regime, called on the Islamic Republic's leadership not to encourage an Israeli attack by stirring provocations or "acting as warmongers."

You're confusing Palestinians living in Israel with Palestinians living in the West Bank or the Gaza concentration camp.

Palestinians in the West Bank have it tough getting through checkpoints.

Palestinians in Gaza are walled in and cannot leave.

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza cannot become citizens, go to schools, get elected, vote, work, and live in Israel. Palestinians in Israel can do those things.

Palestinians in the West Bank live under military occupation. Palestinians in Gaza live in a giant prison.

When is the last time a bus or market in Israel got blown up?

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza could become citizens, go to schools, get elected, vote, work, and live in Israel if Israel would simply annex those lands. One-state solution anyone? Where are CW's crickets.

no I'm not.

How about that one-state solution to solve everything?!

I think the Wheelrite solution involved breast implants for everyone there so the men would be so distracted that they would lose interest in fighting..

I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Daily dose of fun...




Far-right group warns Arabs not to flirt with Jews

A week after attempted lynch, anti-assimilation group hands out fliers in J'lem warning Arab men not to hit on Jewish girls.

A far-right group that works against what it calls “assimilation” and mixing between Jews and Arabs has entered the spotlight the last couple days, as it has come out in support of the savage beating of two Arab youths by a teenage Jewish mob in Jerusalem last Thursday that left one of the boys on the brink of death.

This week “Lahava” (an acronym for “preventing assimilation in the holy land”) began circulating flyers in Jerusalem that warn Arab men against flirting with or talking to Jewish girls, saying "we don’t want you to get hurt, respect our girls honor because they are dear to our hearts."

The fliers, which some Lahava activists have been handing out at Damascus Gate in east Jerusalem and elsewhere in the city, also say “our girls are dear to us, just like you don't want a Jew to date your sister, we also aren't willing to accept an Arab dating one of our women. Just like you would do anything in order to stop a Jew from dating your sister, so would we!”

The flier warns Arab men not to come to west Jerusalem’s malls or public areas to meet a girl, advising them “to walk around in your village and find a girlfriend there not here!”

The flier mentions the beating of 17-year-old Jamal Julani in Zion Square in downtown Jerusalem last Thursday, saying “last week, an Arab who was thought he'd come here and find a Jewish girlfriend was hurt, we don't want you to get hurt, respect the honor of our girls because they are dear to us!”

The chairman of Lehavah, Bentzi Gupstein, who also sits on the local council of the West Bank settlement of Kiryat Arba outside Hebron, offered praise for Julani’s attackers on Tuesday saying "these youth picked the honor of the Jewish people up off the floor and did what the police should have."

The organization "Ir Amim" on Wednesday filed a police complaint for incitement to terror against Lehavah, following Gupstein's remarks and the issuing of the flier.

Non issue. Syria and Iran will keep me out of Syria and Iran. Send them my best.

HD are you Pro Israel now ?

So you're off the Palestinian Band Wagon ?

Wheel, he's not on any bandwagon other than the U.S. stoping aid to Israel. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

I missed the anti-semite cries.