No can do...got to brush clear up at the ranch!

Brush clearing.......next you'll run for President!

Next Saturday???

Very nice!!!

Shrink to fit with a hair dryer!

Next Saturday will work. I'm expecting my supplies this Friday if FedEx is on time.

We will impose a brew/herf no-fly zone. I'll apply for a couple of million dollars from the US government. That ought to cover it.

(Sam off)

Thanks for the education, HD. I've always supported Israel but your info, if accurate, is an eye opener...

Try googling Israeli ID cards. They are color coded and they track ethnicity. The arabs and Christians are tagged very effectively.

Try googling Israeli-only roads in the West Bank. Built on seized Palestinian land to connect settlements and off-limits to Palestinians. Some call them "Jew-only" roads but the talking points will point out that Israeli arabs and Christians can use them, just not West Bank Palestinians.

Between restriction of movement based on ethnicity and being surrounded and separated by military checkpoints, this passes the sniff test for apartheid and concentration/detention/prison camp.

The defense for these actions is that it is needed for security reasons. The USA helps fund this. Our foreign aid to Israel is equal to $500 per Israeli per year. Not a bad haul.

Keep in mind that there is a pretty large contingent of Israelis and Jews worldwide who are also sick of this crap. They just aren't in charge.


Americans aren't supposed to know this information or bother researching it. Israel is our closest ally in the region, a strong Israel prevents war in the middle east, they're the only democracy in the region, and Israel as an ally stops Soviet encroachment. That is enough talking points for Americans to blindly fund it.

That's how we get sucked into intervening in places like Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, and now maybe Labya.



I have supported right wing dictatorships that kill civilians so it really shouldn't be a surprise that I will support Israel in a cage match. I just won't fund it.

you always refer to "seized land" while disingenuously allowing the inference that Israel launched land-grabbing wars. You know better, you know these lands came in the act of defense when surrounding Arab nations (that inconvenient seige reference again) attempted synchronized attacks more than once, you have the dates, ...once on Yom Kippur...with the goal of driving the Jews/Israel off of the map.

Clearly their goal was not to secure a Palestinian Homeland, whether Balfour's Declaration or other. Israel was within their borders before those attacks. Though having not started any of the wars in which they gained land, Israel, as you would agree, could have had the entire area at any time if they were the expansionists you say. Israel has never declared that they want the entire area. Using Zionism in your mode, it is illogical that they have never lauched an attack attempting to take over the entire area. They do not want to lose Israel though.. Yet their neighbors have announced their intentions many times. You remain incorrect, there is no Land of Israel on their maps, deny all you want.

Israel has never been attacked in an effort to create a Palestinian Homeland.. but rather in an effort to eliminate the Jewish one. The Palestinians that we would certainly agree are being brutalized are pawns of the powerful Arab entities. These entities love the public relations spin and any world sympathy that Palestinian suffering generates...so they won't lend a hand to their plight either. They do not care one iota for the Palestinians, have always regarded them as filth, as dirt. Always. Always. These nations want this to be Israel's problem, they have always washed their hands of these unwanted, unadopted transients and now it works on the World Stage against Israel. And you buy it.

Any changes in the original borders are the result of Arab aggression being turned back. The Arab aggression was not to create Palestine. And much land was returned ...for peace agreements. Unprecedented, brilliant, and admirable. They were even willing to go back to pre 1967 borders, this was viewed as an insult by the folks you say have offered many counteroffers. I'm sure you would agree that Balfour also intended it to be clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing Jewish communities in Israel, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. Clearly attacks on Israel on virtually day one of it's new existence ended any hopes of this Utopian vision from materializing for either side. Not Israeli attacks, mind you. And now it's 60 something years later. You think the borders should be where? You think the Arab negotiators would accept your borders? You think Abbas won't be killed if he signs off? You think he forgot Sadat was killed?

Counteroffers? What counteroffers? Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, get over it. Arabs and Christians have full access to it. I can not step in Mecca or many many other Arab cities.

Much of the West Bank will be surrounded by the Israeli military? You mean like a threatening seige? Can you dig the irony? Unless there really isn't a reason to fear being surrounded anymore.

I'm out of breath and I never want to repeat all this again nor read the same old same old from you either. But if it is really as simple as your last line for you, that you support but do not wish to fund, a lot less ink could have been used. I understand the political opinion that does not want our money or resources to go to any countries, I don't agree but I understand that debate.

Frank,

I never said Israel launched wars to seize land. The reality is the last arab-Israeli war was in 1973, 37 years ago. In the outcome of the '67 and '73 wars, Israel parked a lot of military equipment on land that was not Israel before the wars and even built a bunch of roads and settlements for a few hundred thousand people on that land. But it was not seized! The Israelis just haven't gotten around to packing up and leaving! Why are those couple of hundred thousand Jewish settlers in the West Bank??

Since 1973 the Israelis have sent the tanks into Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon again. Each time the other adjacent arab nations sat it out. The next arab-Israeli war has not materialized.

Your description is one of endless war with no possibility of peace and that is the overall defense for what I have pointed out as problems. (except Jordan and Egypt already have peace treaties and that messes up the theory) If it is endless war there is no reason to offer viable borders, peace, or any solution to the current situation other than it must go on into infinity. It is just a 37 year old lull in the fighting.

The unwanted, unadopted transient Palestinians are Israel's problem because they are in Israel-occupied territory. Israel could easily just declare them to be independent, draw some lines in the sand, and tell the UN to come clean it up. After 43 years, it is pretty clear that the Palestinians aren't just going to pack up and move to Jordan. Do the same thing repeatedly, expect different results.

To maintain the Israeli seige mentality, it needs enemies. The whole World Stage has been turned against Israel even though Israel can do no wrong. Essentially, you are guaranteeing that there must be another arab-Israeli war and you are OK with that. The whole world hates poor little Israel and the arabs are just reloading. Maybe that just is how it has to be in that part of the world and we should launch another Christian crusade and clean the whole nest out. We wouldn't seize the land though, just park a bunch of military stuff on it, forever.

You're going to have to make peace eventually. Israel already won. Endless war is expensive and that is why Israel is still sucking off our teat. The arab world is already on its knees when it comes to Israel. Asking them to get on the hands and knees is a bit too much.

...and I still don't see Israel launching a no-fly zone over Libya. I thought they would have our backs in the next war.

By the way, take a google at:

J Street
New Israel Fund
Americans for Peace Now

Are they also your enemy?

http://www.peacenow.org/map.php 

Here is a really cool interactive map on the West Bank settlements based on Google Map technology.

Can you come up with any good reasons as to why there are a few hundred thousand Israelis in West Bank settlements?

OK, nice tone above, much more productive, we have some agreement as you shall see.

I did not accuse you of saying Israel attacked to grab land, I said you slyly allowed that conclusion to be inferred by readers. Your use of Zionism hinted at the somewhat believed notion that there is a movement in play to take over the whole area. I know you know that is also a dangerous misconception to float out there in the midst of possible anti israeli sentiment.

I also know you know the truth about the land acquisittion. You know more than I do! And much land was returned to those that wanted no more part of Israel militarily...other land was legitimately used as buffer, and roads and settlements were built on land that Israel felt was now theirs and in their minds somehow made them even safer. Their land, their roads...to the ignorant who call Israel America's bitch, did you not notice they did not ask for our approval? We don't have to like it and we don't. They do not care...they are in the biz of survival and it seems to be working...37 years now according to HD. Not by continuing war, but by discouraging and even pre-empting war's possibility, by staying forever vigilant. This is what "never again" means. Do not over value our "aid". They will not blink. Read history, they will not blink.

And rewarding peace and the right to exist with returned land. Not very good expansionistas for such savvy businessmen, eh? Bad joke, would have jumped all over you for it. Sorry.

I am not Israeli, I do not condone a lot of what they have done, you are quite correct (again) that many Jews and Israelis not in power do not support what has developed. count me among them, but what if they had lost when attacked. Care to fill in any readers still with us what the odds are on Israeli land being returned? Or any Jews allowed on it? That game shows up as "no line" at my bookie's house. What they built may be contentious, but what they also did was unprecedented and worthy of Global praise.

Yes, I speak of seige mentality. You say I speak of endless war. I am speaking of endless defense, the wars may come and go, that is up to the Arabs. Be real, they have enemies, you can't mean that part of the above post. I don't see scuds landing on my lawn being launched from Quebec and Mexico City. If there were, oh yeah, I'd be a bit edgy. So would you. Siege mentality. Assume the defensive posture or perish. You and I would be shoulder to shoulder (please bring Tats, I never get any) locked and loaded (did I say that right?).

The Arabs, in fact do reload. Tell us what you know of Hezbollah, aren't they responsible for horrors in other neighbors of Israel? Poor sweet Lebanon. Lovely people, lovely country. Hezbollah and Syria causing so much destruction. Cowardly military tactics, hiding behind chidren, launching missles from apartment complexes, Israel forced to shut these sites down...CNN, bad pub.

Tell us what you know of all the ammo, missiles, other war making materials, ordinary looking trash trucks that are vehicles of destruction etc that Israel intercepts or uncovers every day for the last 37 years of no war. They are mind numbingly great at it. They don't body scan, xray, or pat down people at airports. Just excellent police work, observation, yes there are stops for questioning...what in God's name would you do? Americans are willing to give up all freedoms to government for a bit of perceived security because of one horrendous terrorist attack. Terrorists are in their marketplace every day! They can not afford to relax...but that is not me saying they need war. That is correct survival defensive tactics when surrounded.

You are also correct (how many is that?), Israel has already won. So make peace with the victor and hope to get most of what you want. Start with publishing this alleged document recognizing Israel's right to exist, my copy got lost in the mail.

I'm serious about the tats, dude.

Peace

Frank

The next arab-Israeli war hasn't happened in 37 years because of the events of the 1973 war, not because Israel is ever vigilant, not because of "never again", not because of endless war, not because of endless defense, and not because of seige mentality. The situation and the world is different now and Israel has failed to adapt and is gloriously failing again right now.

The 1973 war proved that Israel was not invincible. It also proved that Israel couldn't be wiped out through conventional war. Although on the ground it pretty much was fought to a stalemate, what changed is Israel readied their nuclear arsenal when things weren't looking good. The USSR also readied their nuclear arsenal and the USA went on nuclear alert. It is also believed that the USSR sent nuclear warheads to Egypt. Low and behold, a cease fire was arranged.

Under the endless war/endless defense method of operation, here is how the next arab-Israeli war plays out. There are something like 50 Muslim countries, 20+ that are arab. One billion muslims versus 9 million Israeli Jews. If Israel really wants to sit back and wait for war #5 and try to go 5-0, OK fine.

Here's your scenario: Pakistan moves 30 nuclear warheads to Syria very secretly. A combined nuclear launch and air attack overwhelms the Israel defenses just enough that missles get through. 6-7 nuclear detonations and Israel is destroyed. Ground troops mop up the rest. With submarines and missle silos, Israel has seond strike capability and a bunch of arab cities go up in nuclear detonations so there is a steep price to pay. The Palestinians get the most radiated areas of Israel for their homeland. Israel is now 4-1 and eliminated from the tournament. Thanks for playing.

Now let's try the peace approach instead:

The reality is a whole lot of those arab and/or Muslim nations don't really give a crap about Israel any more. The armies aren't poised on the border. The bombs haven't been going off in Israeli marketplaces for years. You have to get past the old threats to deal with the future.

Arab leaders do not fear Israel. Right now they fear democracy, change, freedom, and like every politician-loss of power. So now you start working your way around the borders to improve relations.

Egypt: Already have a peace treaty. Just ousted Mubarak. Might want to start contacting some of the presidential candidates. There are some good ones already announced.

Jordan: Already have a peace treaty.

Palestinians: Time to end the camps. It is going to cost a lot of West Bank territory and Jewish settlements. This is the #1 issue that makes Israel a pariah and rogue state. A Egyptian style nonviolent protest in the West Bank and Gaza wold be the absolute worst thing for Israel right now.

Syria: Almost had a peace treaty completed but negotiations fell apart when Israeli tanks rolled into Gaza. Blue Line or Green Line. They were arguing over 100 yds in the Golan. Peace with Syria means less Iranian influence. Syria is more afraid of protests in the streets than Israel.

Lebanon: Hezbollah is now democratically elected in control of the government. They gained this strength because Israel invaded in 2006. Peace with Syria cuts some of their support and even now Hezbollah has to act like a government, not a terrorist organization or they will face uprisings.

Imagine the press conference.....

Q: What do you plan to do to improve schools?
A: Death to Israel.
Q: What are your plans to strengthen the economy?
A: Death to Israel.
Q: What about jobs?
A: Death to Israel.


Now let's see which path Israel is taking right now......Peace or endless war/defense.

Israel is still building settlements in the West Bank. Gaza is still a prison camp. There are no peace negotiations with Lebanon or Syria or Palestinians. Israel says beware of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Israel says they may need another $20 billion from the USA for military aid. Israel wants the USA to bomb Iran.

End settlement construction and make peace with an independent Palestine and you nullify around 80% of the gripes against Israel.

The document with Israel's right to exist is in the Egyptian peace treaty, the Jordanian peace treaty, and in the Palestinian Authority charter. Just google it. It is definitely not in Hamas or Hezbollah's charters. Hamas and Hezbollah are not the West Bank. They are not Judea and Samaria. They are not surrounding the hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

Of all the inaccuracies/points we will never agree upon two posts up, I actually believe that I am not the only one laughing at "Lebanon: Hezbollah is now democratically elected in control of the government." They are in control alright. And they caused the destruction as described in my previous post. Setting up cowardly attacks from southern Lebanon (despite your claims there haven't been any ) is what caused the invasion!! Not sure that Lebanese people would agree about a legitimate democratic process. Backlash for sure, but ask the Lebanese Christians how delighted they are. Or non-radical Muslims. There are many.

Ask any Christians about Bethlehem (a little off the topic). Hell, ask Christians about oppression in any of these countries, may make you vomit.

Was I'madinnerjacket also elected in a legitimate democratic process? Pretty sure he has been open about his commitment to destroy Israel. Not reading that from you, though. And so on and so forth.

There are no other words to say when I keep saying endless defense , and you keep claiming I am saying endless war/endless defense. You say the war is over for decades. Make up your mind. You are simply wrong about why Israel is still around. We wish Homeland turns out as reliable. And the Israeli army stopping 90 miles outside of Cairo (the joke goes that they had to stop Friday at sundown for Shabat) was a huge part of the treaty that followed.

But here is where you are correct:

You are correct when you say Arab leaders no longer fear Israel. They should not fear Israel for Israel is not looking to wipe them out, just to make sure they understand Israel ain't going away either.

And you are also correct when you say the world has and is changing...except for those folks stuck in a world worshipping death to the infidels. Israel shines in the development of all things improving life from medicine to technology, to agriculture etc etc (do you really need links, doesn't everyone know this?) This is where the rest of the world should focus its energy and efforts...on pulling these people out of their 500 year old mind jail. They must change, they need help to change, Israel is already instrumental in developing the modern world. No nations will be truly safe until the lunatics catch up. So you are right the world has changed, but you are wrong in who you think is out of step. Even America is not safe from them until they join the rest of modern humanity

There are many peace loving devout Muslims in towns around my home and they are distraught about the terrorists and the situation. They and their majority brothers and sisters all over the world (they vastly outnumber radical Islamists) need to strap on a few million pairs and start taking control of their religion.

The number one time you are correct...End settlement construction and make peace with an independent Palestine and you nullify around 80% of the gripes against Israel:

I could be convinced of this.

You can laugh at Lebanon because you don't like the outcome but that had elections and Hezbollah won the majority of the seats. Absolutely there are Lebanese than are not thrilled about that just like not everyone was thrilled about Obama. This is one of the problems with supporting democracy. You don't always get what you want. Were you expecting a pro-Israel government after the 2006 invasion? You weed Hezbollah out through peace with Syria and the Palestinians. You take their legs out from under them. ...Or go the other route and invade again. I expect another Lebanon-Israeil war very soon if the USA will fund it.

Bethlehem is an excellent example of why we should launch a Christian crusade and clear out the whole area! It is also the Christian Holy Land and we have far more weaponry. We can move the Palestinians to Jordan and the Jews to the Sinai and let them wander for 40 years or so. How Christians are treated in Muslim countries does not affect Israel's ability to stop settlements in the West Bank and make peace with the Palestinians.

Akmenaged got elected through a democratic process. He won 114% of the vote. Did you notice the violent protests afterward? Iran has a little internal problem like a lot of other countries in the region. This should be cultivated, not bombed. This is another area where once again Israel is useless to the USA and can't help us.

You're more than welcome to joke about why the Israeli army stopped short of Cairo. You also might want to google a bit about USSR's intentions to make sure Cairo didn't fall or the Egyptian air force wasn't destroyed. Proxy wars were still important back then. Why did the USA go on nuclear alert?

Problems with radical Islam is a deflection. It is not a reason to avoid peace with the West Bank and end the settlement colonization. If anything, current behavior feeds radical Islam and keeps that faction much stronger than its true numbers. Islam has to fix that problem, not Israel or the USA or the world. Islam knows that during the dark ages they were the innovators, inventors, and best civilization. They also know that now they are backward-ass and that slide started well before Israel existed. This is a source of embarrassment.

For Israel, keep doing the same thing, expect different results with the West Bank. ...or take a look at what worked with Egypt and Jordan. The underlying difference is a significant amount of Israelis see the West Bank as Israel and think the Palestinians should pack up and leave. That is why the settlements are there in the first place. This is not that hard to figure out.

I'll fund Israel when they try something different.

Excellent! Thank you, very funny and also poignant. There will be peace between us soon. Short retorts first, OK?

1) I didn't question if it was a legitimate democratic election because I didn't get what I wanted, I question it based of the fact that it wasn't legitimate. Intimidation, Hezbollah controlled...fairly accepted as what happened by the rest of the world. Never would get a pro Israel result, even if not rigged, but a better chance for peace with more moderates in charge. Democracy and freedom should have risks, and sometimes I lose. Still, fearful that Syria and Hezbollah are redundant terms...hope you are right about weeding out, seriously, it is something to root for.

2) Didn't mean to tie in Bethlehem with Israel, that's why I said "off the topic". But as an example of how nicely your side would treat you shortly after landing here! You blame Israel's treatment, c'mon man, they been killing you guys for centuries, also before new Israel. They treat Jews worse. Maybe someday you can be allowed in Bethlehem. But I definitely meant it as a side bar.

3) Not much dispute about Iran between us. Agree with cultivation. Hate him or not, Obama is trying to get some kind of message inside that country, maybe he is being foolish, maybe an embarrassment in the eyes of many here, but refusing to even talk to them adds decades to the stalemate. 114%? Closer than I thought. The over/under was 126%. But if and when they become desparate, Iran's leaders could lash out...WHO YOU GONNA CALL? Israel, not Ghostbusters or the love-in bunch from OPEC. Spare me france and germany.

4) Maybe Russia was a factor in Israel stopping...maybe not. But A) Israel did not want to take over Egypt, they wanted Egypt to get the fear of G-d in them and never attack again. Mission accomplished. And 😎 for the record, it was Shabat.

5) Not so close on radical Islam. It is the problem, or a huge deterent to peace. They are not into negotiating, they are absolutists...or else they wouldn't be called "radical". What am I missing in that definition. BUT, you are making my point with... "Islam has to fix that problem, not Israel or the USA or the world. Islam knows that during the dark ages they were the innovators, inventors, and best civilization. They also know that now they are backward-ass and that slide started well before Israel existed. This is a source of embarrassment." You are aware that you were agreeing with me, eh? I tell you when you are correct, would it kill ya to toss me a bone? I'm working hard here. Abbas might negotiate, and he'll be killed for doing so.

I hope you didn't previously think I felt Israel had to "fix" Islam's problems...just not get wiped out by them. Unfortunately, to protect oneself from absolutist radicals, well, packing up and backing up would only encourage them, not soften their 5 century fanaticism. Everyday Muslims have to emerge from their paralyzing cocoons and speak out LOUDLY. Israel will tread water to survive in the interim.

6) If you mean that you would then fund, then at least use Jewish terms. Say "I pledge (fill in the blank) dollars." I though you were more familiar with our ways!

Israel doesn't roll on the Shabat Donnie.

It all still comes down to the fact that there are two camps of thought in Israel.

Left: Land for peace. It worked with Egypt and Jordan.

Right: Endless war/defense. The arabs are just reloading. Peace will only come from absolute surrender of everyone to us. Colonize the West Bank for Greater Israel. Jordan should declare itself the Palestinian state and the Palestinians should leave the West Bank and Greater Israel. We will go 5-0! Oh, and we may need another $20 billion from the US to do it. Sure the whole world is against us but they're all anti-Semites.

The USA funds Israel regardless of which camp is in power and gets nothing in return. Do the same thing, expect different results.

Israel has lost the worldwide war of public opinion and diplomacy because of the West Bank settlements. Israel will have to repair that. The current course is only going to result in a UN unilateral declaration of an independent Palestine complete with UN and possibly NATO peacekeepers.

Some right, some wrong, some...we shall see.

But I'm pretty sure that lots and lots of generations of "Palestinian" people have been simply discarded by Jordan (and some others) in the first place. They sure as hell don't want them now!! Never would have been any problems had they cared about them as much as you do! But they do have marketing value...

I'm going to coin a phrase right now: Jordan's Gypsies. Here, you can have 'em. We don't want 'em, you keep 'em. OK, we'll put them in front of tanks when CNN shows up. I don't think that many of the sovereign nations in the area give a crap about the Palestinians, but the radicals find use for them.

Israel didn't lose the worldwide war of public opinion, they stubbornly and arrogantly refused to enter a team. I agree, gigantic mistake. "I only know what I read in the papers" has been replaced by what I see in soundbites on cable news. But see the statement above: radicals finding use.

Israel gives nothing in return...not worthy of you and not worthy of a response. Their contributions to the world in a few decades has been spectacular.

What do say, synchronized cigars tonight...celebrate the Sabbath together?

"Israel doesn't roll on the Shabat Donnie." Great! Thanks

I try...I'll be here all week...try the fish and don't forget to tip your waitress!