FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Right.

So GWB terminated the "aggressive search" and Obama restarted the "aggressive search".

HockeyDad wrote:



Again and Again, yes. Backed up by words, actions and results.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Like I said FuzzNJ, you create what you want to believe.

HockeyDad wrote:



And you can continue to ignore everything presented to you to keep your beliefs intact. It's all there for those willing to see.
Nicar
15 years ago
Y


A


W


N



Go back up and edit your post..where you said Clinton started it in 06 and Bush ended it 10 years later... I know it must be a typo


That is all...
HockeyDad
15 years ago

Again and Again, yes. Backed up by words, actions and results.

FuzzNJ wrote:




First, it is not what you originally state on this thread so feel free to go back and edit it. Second, you can't prove it anyway.


It is backed up only by your agenda and the need to make it fit.


In other news, the Washington Capitals suck.
teedubbya
15 years ago
All this aside I think we should have skinned OBL and created a skin suit ala buffalo bill. The suit should have been presented to GWB as a gift. He then could go trick or treating as OBL. The one thing Bush did right was go after these bastards and all the idiots trying to make it look like he somehow backed off or was inept (at this) should have their ball sacks slapped (if they have one).

Bush sucked, but not at everything. Obama sucks, but not at everything.
HockeyDad
15 years ago

All this aside I think we should have skinned OBL and created a skin suit ala buffalo bill. The suit should have been presented to GWB as a gift. He then could go trick or treating as OBL. The one thing Bush did right was go after these bastards and all the idiots trying to make it look like he somehow backed off or was inept (at this) should have their ball sacks slapped (if they have one).

Bush sucked, but not at everything. Obama sucks, but not at everything.

teedubbya wrote:




Yup.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

All this aside I think we should have skinned OBL and created a skin suit ala buffalo bill. The suit should have been presented to GWB as a gift. He then could go trick or treating as OBL. The one thing Bush did right was go after these bastards and all the idiots trying to make it look like he somehow backed off or was inept (at this) should have their ball sacks slapped (if they have one).

Bush sucked, but not at everything. Obama sucks, but not at everything.

teedubbya wrote:



How was going into Iraq going after 'these bastards'?
HockeyDad
15 years ago

How was going into Iraq going after 'these bastards'?

FuzzNJ wrote:




Going into Libya didn't stop Obama from going after those bastards.
teedubbya
15 years ago

How was going into Iraq going after 'these bastards'?

FuzzNJ wrote:



Iraq was a mistake and it is when I turned against Bush. But you put WAY too much emphasis on how it distracted from going after terrorism. IMHO when folks apply mutually excliusive logic to things it is either out of convienience to their argument or stupidity.

Bush wanted to kill the bad guys as much or more than anyone else. To suggest otherwise is stupid to me. I see both sides projecting this stupidity in some form or another.



So how about bush went into Iraq under false pretenses and it was a bad move (I know some will argue that but its ok). Bush really wanted to get OBL and more importantly disrupt al queda and protect this country.

If both statements can not be true in your mind then that is your issue. Watching folks trying to paint Bush as somehow not putting every effort into getting this done is disgusting. If anything the man was obsessed by it, and I am glad he was.
teedubbya
15 years ago

Going into Libya didn't stop Obama from going after those bastards.

HockeyDad wrote:



same thought process but much more concise. only one thing can happen at a time.... remember?
HockeyDad
15 years ago

same thought process but much more concise. only one thing can happen at a time.... remember?

teedubbya wrote:





Yes, it is all about packaging some form of reality to fit a predefined political agenda. Obama can multi-task. Bush could not multi-task.

Obama = greatness
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Y


A


W


N



Go back up and edit your post..where you said Clinton started it in 06 and Bush ended it 10 years later... I know it must be a typo


That is all...

Nicar wrote:



You are correct, my bad. It was actually in 2005, so 9 years. Sorry.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Iraq was a mistake and it is when I turned against Bush. But you put WAY too much emphasis on how it distracted from going after terrorism. IMHO when folks apply mutually excliusive logic to things it is either out of convienience to their argument or stupidity.

Bush wanted to kill the bad guys as much or more than anyone else. To suggest otherwise is stupid to me. I see both sides projecting this stupidity in some form or another.



So how about bush went into Iraq under false pretenses and it was a bad move (I know some will argue that but its ok). Bush really wanted to get OBL and more importantly disrupt al queda and protect this country.

If both statements can not be true in your mind then that is your issue. Watching folks trying to paint Bush as somehow not putting every effort into getting this done is disgusting. If anything the man was obsessed by it, and I am glad he was.

teedubbya wrote:



While it is logical and factual that both statements can be true, the analysis made by so many military analysts and others over the years has shown that the amount of assets needed to fight the war in Iraq were much more than the administration had thought they would be. Remember they said it would be a 'cakewalk' and fired the general who said it would require 300-500k troops.

This along with closing the unit specifically charged with hunting down bin Laden and folding it into 'regional' matters and the downplaying of bin Laden's importance by the President and other administration officials and the focus on 'mushroom clouds' from Saddam make it clear that the focus and priorities had shifted from what was initially a 'dead or alive' scenario to 'we better win in Iraq' mission.

So while I'm sure Bush would have loved to 'git' bin Laden, it was no longer the biggest issue in the region.
teedubbya
15 years ago

Yes, it is all about packaging some form of reality to fit a predefined political agenda. Obama can multi-task. Bush could not multi-task.

Obama = greatness

HockeyDad wrote:




Bush is still the worst president in my lifetime. The Big O is closing. We'll see. They are quite similar.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Yes, it is all about packaging some form of reality to fit a predefined political agenda. Obama can multi-task. Bush could not multi-task.

Obama = greatness

HockeyDad wrote:



You mean it's like when people say water-boarding caught bin Laden?
teedubbya
15 years ago

While it is logical and factual that both statements can be true, the analysis made by so many military analysts and others over the years has shown that the amount of assets needed to fight the war in Iraq were much more than the administration had thought they would be. Remember they said it would be a 'cakewalk' and fired the general who said it would require 300-500k troops.

This along with closing the unit specifically charged with hunting down bin Laden and folding it into 'regional' matters and the downplaying of bin Laden's importance by the President and other administration officials and the focus on 'mushroom clouds' from Saddam make it clear that the focus and priorities had shifted from what was initially a 'dead or alive' scenario to 'we better win in Iraq' mission.

So while I'm sure Bush would have loved to 'git' bin Laden, it was no longer the biggest issue in the region.

FuzzNJ wrote:




Just not true. Convienient for those who want to make the argument but not really true. Yes it did divert resources, but not to the extent "analysis made by so many military analysts"*rolling eyes* have concluded. We balance resources all the time and make decisions accordingly. There is no direct coorelation. Iraq was a mistake (tactical error), but extrapolating to a reduction on the war on terror is nonsense. HD is right. Then wasting time on Libya or any other area requireing troop or resource deployment is the same thing.

You don't like Bush. Me neither. But get a grip. The man lived and breathed the terrorism boogieman. If anything too much so. To suggest otherwise dilutes all the other solid arguments about his ineptness. Its just silly. It is just a really absurd path taken by anyone who would profess to be logical and not driven by blind partisan thought. It is birther like.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

Just not true. Convienient for those who want to make the argument but not really true. Yes it did divert resources, but not to the extent "analysis made by so many military analysts"*rolling eyes* have concluded. We balance resources all the time and make decisions accordingly. There is no direct coorelation. Iraq was a mistake (tactical error), but extrapolating to a reduction on the war on terror is nonsense. HD is right. Then wasting time on Libya or any other area requireing troop or resource deployment is the same thing.

You don't like Bush. Me neither. But get a grip. The man lived and breathed the terrorism boogieman. If anything too much so. To suggest otherwise dilutes all the other solid arguments about his ineptness. Its just silly. It is just a really absurd path taken by anyone who would profess to be logical and not driven by blind partisan thought. It is birther like.

teedubbya wrote:



While I am fairly certain that no amount of evidence will convince the righties here, I give more:

The historians say resistance to providing more robust resources to Afghanistan had three sources in the White House and the Pentagon.

First, President George W. Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had criticized using the military for peacekeeping and reconstruction in the Balkans during the 1990s. As a result, “nation building” carried a derogatory connotation for many senior military officials, even though American forces were being asked to fill gaping voids in the Afghan government after the Taliban’s fall.

Second, military planners were concerned about Afghanistan’s long history of resisting foreign invaders and wanted to avoid the appearance of being occupiers. But the historians argue that this concern was based partly on an “incomplete” understanding of the Soviet experience in Afghanistan.

Third, the invasion of Iraq was siphoning away resources. After the invasion started in March 2003, the history says, the United States clearly “had a very limited ability to increase its forces” in Afghanistan.

The history provides a detailed retelling of the battle of Tora Bora, the cave-riddled insurgent redoubt on the Pakistan border where American forces thought they had trapped Osama bin Laden in December 2001. But Mr. bin Laden apparently escaped into Pakistan along with hundreds of Qaeda fighters.

The historians call Tora Bora “a lost opportunity” to capture or kill Mr. bin Laden. But they concluded that even with more troops, the American and Afghan forces probably could not have sealed the rugged border. And they deemed the battle a partial success because it “dealt a severe blow to those Taliban and Al Qaeda elements that remained active in Afghanistan.”

The history also recounts well-known battles like Operation Anaconda, in eastern Afghanistan in spring 2002. The history ends in the fall of 2005, when many American officials still felt optimistic about Afghanistan’s future. Postponed parliamentary elections were held that fall, but Taliban attacks were also on the rise.

“It was clear that the struggle to secure a stable and prosperous future for Afghanistan was not yet won,” the history concludes.

The historians say resistance to providing more robust resources to Afghanistan had three sources in the White House and the Pentagon.

http://documents.nytimes.com/a-different-kind-of-war#p=1 

An actual study published by the Combat Studies Institute at Forth Levenworth.

White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said Monday that it is too soon to say whether Obama will authorize more troops for Afghanistan, and that McChrystal's report has not yet reached the president's desk. Still, he asserted, for years the war had been neglected.

"I think there's broad agreement that for many years, our effort in Afghanistan has been under-resourced politically, militarily, economically," Gibbs said. He called the mounting U.S. casualties and other problems in Afghanistan a consequence of the Bush administration's strategy there.

Gates said McChrystal's upcoming "resource recommendations" will be carefully examined, but he noted that "there are larger issues" to be considered.

"I have expressed some concerns in the past about the size of the American footprint, the size of the foreign military footprint in Afghanistan," Gates said on a trip to Fort Worth. "And, clearly, I want to address those issues. And we will have to look at the availability of forces; we'll have to look at costs. There are a lot of different things that we'll have to look at, once we get his recommendations, before we make any recommendations to the president."

In an interview with The Washington Post last week, Mullen said it might not be possible to fill requests from McChrystal for new troops.

If the demand for troops in Afghanistan goes up and is not offset by reductions in Iraq, it would delay the ability of the Army and Marine Corps to give heavily deployed ground troops more time at home between combat tours.

"That's a huge concern that I have," Mullen said in the interview. He noted that the concern was shared by Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, as well as by other service chiefs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/31/AR2009083101100.html 
HockeyDad
15 years ago

You mean it's like when people say water-boarding caught bin Laden?

FuzzNJ wrote:





Yes, it is the exact same. Two wrongs make a right.

The truth is we will never know the truth because there are competing agendas that need to manufacture the truth to suit their needs.
HockeyDad
15 years ago
One could argue that there never was a reason for more resources in Afghanistan and Obama sending more resources was a mistake.

Bin Laden was in Pakistan.
FuzzNJ
  • FuzzNJ
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
15 years ago

One could argue that there never was a reason for more resources in Afghanistan and Obama sending more resources was a mistake.

Bin Laden was in Pakistan.

HockeyDad wrote:



Yes, one could make that argument, but the increase of troops in Afghanistan was requested by the military to fight back the resurgent Taliban. The increased drone attacks and increased use of special forces to take out al Qaeda and other terrorist threats was aimed at getting bin Laden and other high value targets all over the world, including Pakistan.
Users browsing this topic