drnos
  • drnos
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
13 years ago
dpnewell, in a response to a post called "Interesting Reading" had this to say:

"When the 2nd Amendment was written, private citizens had weapons more powerful then the military. Kentucky long rifles could kill at 300 yards, and most Americans had the skill to do so. Military muskets at the time where very inaccurate, and where only affective out to 50 yards. Most cannon was in the hands of private citizens. The equivalent of fighter jets, tanks and machine guns being owned today by private citizens, while the military was armed with semi-auto sporting rifles."

Agreed. In fact, I have been thinking a lot about a trip I took my family on to Concord (or Lexington, one or the other) many years ago. The ranger told us about those fateful days.

The British Army was encamped in Boston. Only it wasn't really the 'British Army' it was OUR army, because we were British. They arose in the middle of the night to march out to Concord on a 'search and destroy' mission. Paul Revere (and William Dawes) rode out in front to warn the minutemen of their approach. The army first had to cross the Charles, so marched at night in wet boots and clothes. They were not a happy lot.

The minutemen, being forewarned, grabbed their rifles and kits and headed out into the woods. The soldiers reached Concord and entered houses there, confiscated weapons and powder, piled them in the town square and lit them on fire. The minutemen did not have a clear view of their town square, but saw the smoke rise in the morning sky. The word passed among them "Are they burning the houses?"; "They are burning the town."; "They are buring our wives and children alive in their homes!"

Perhaps fired up by their own misunderstandings, they ended up firing "the shot heard 'round the world."

[Please attribute any bad history to my own foggy recollection. I'm sure the park docent got it all absolutely correct.]

When the Revolution was over, and the Constitution was passed around for adoption, the people would not endorse it without 10 amendments, our Bill of Rights. Among these Rights: 4th Amendment ("The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..."] and the 2nd Amendment (too well known to quote here). I tell the above story to illustrate why our forefathers were so insistent on their rights.

The 2nd Amendment was not insisted upon to preserve hunting arms. It was not even about personal protection from criminals. It was to protect the citizens against their government; to keep the government wary about the ability of the citizens to arise in revolution.

I started to wonder about the things dpnewell wrote about: were our revolutionary forefathers really on equal footing with the great army of England?

Indeed they were. The state of the art in weaponry consisted of muskets, cannons, and mortars. Washington's army was well supplied with all. In fact, the Americans could forge a new cannon and place it in the field faster than England could ship one across the Atlantic.

Now I have always considered myself a strict constructionist, conservative on the Constitution. What is says, what it means, was good enough for 200 years, it's good enough for today.

But the reality of weaponry and government size of 200 years ago just doesn't exist today. Even if we had the absolute, Constitutional right to bear arms equal to (or better than!) our government, the economic reality makes it impossible. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and 10 other billionaires could never field an air force equal to the USAF. Ships? Forget about it! Know what a carrier costs these days? Private ownership of nuclear-tipped ICBMs? Do we really want to go there?

If the citizens were to revolt against the US govt, they would have to do it the way every other nation does it today: they would have to turn the military to their side. Can a citizen's army arise to defeat a modern nation's military?

That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?
HockeyDad
13 years ago

That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?

drnos wrote:




Re-think as in eliminate it and issue a complete surrender to the Federal government?
Abrignac
13 years ago



That said, is it time to re-think the 2nd Amendment for the 21st century?

drnos wrote:




NO
ZRX1200
13 years ago
Explosives are HEAVILY REGULATED.

The argument being made that missles, Nukes, armed F16's will run rampant is a red herring.


sd72
13 years ago
Maybe I could still protect myself from these local criminals with my guns. What are we rethinking?

victor809
13 years ago
The argument isn't that overly destructive weaponry will run rampant.
The argument is that the 2nd amendment cannot, due to fiscal reasons, as well as "I don't want my neighbor **** to be allowed to buy a nuke" reasons, actually function as it was intended.

Simply can't.
Don't care how many good ole boy hunters we've got... they'd be wiped out by drones the instant they tried rising up.

Technology, and the prohibitive cost of technology, has neutered the 2nd Amendment.

With that in mind, the question is whether we keep it or not, and why do we defend keeping it?

(note, I'm for keeping it... for no other reason in my mind than "people making stupid decisions with guns makes better headlines than people making stupid decisions without guns"...)
tegulator
13 years ago
Congrats all involved...I'm now working on a paper about this very issue. 😃
DrMaddVibe
13 years ago

Congrats all involved...I'm now working on a paper about this very issue. :D

tegulator wrote:




yes...you can make a brooch...a pterodactyl...oh look...a sale at Penny's!
HockeyDad
13 years ago


Don't care how many good ole boy hunters we've got... they'd be wiped out by drones the instant they tried rising up.

victor809 wrote:




Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.
tegulator
13 years ago

yes...you can make a brooch...a pterodactyl...oh look...a sale at Penny's!

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Love the reference!
DrMaddVibe
13 years ago

Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.

HockeyDad wrote:




The can be only one Neo.

Sorry. Mouse can write a code to include the lady in the red dress, but there can only be one Neo. The Architect said so.
victor809
13 years ago

Drone only historically can kill 2nd-in-commands. The good ole boys might have taken note of this and go with more of a matrix management structure.

HockeyDad wrote:



... I don't think anyone considers them overly burdened with a sense of military strategy...
DrafterX
13 years ago

... I don't think anyone considers them overly burdened with a sense of military strategy...

victor809 wrote:




didn't you ever see 'Next of Kin'..??? 😕
drnos
  • drnos
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
13 years ago
Victor809: exactly! Circumstances have overtaken the purpose of the 2nd. I know gun control laws don't do what their supporters hope. But when 2nd amendment supporters waffle and say "I support banning bazookas, RPGs and tanks," well they don't fully support the 2nd amend.
ZRX1200
13 years ago
I do fully support the 2nd amendment I agued this very subject ad nauseum with brewha.

You and Victor are still looking through the wrong lense IMO. The US military (govt) has FAR overstepped it's bounds. We have no business or constitutional reason to be playing world police. That is the 800lbs gorilla in the room. The relationship between the public and their 2nd amendment rights have not changed the way that the Government and Military has. Stop breath think.

When someone is trying to take your rights you should immediately see that person as an enemy to your liberty and find out their reasons.

"Reasonable gun laws" is a bullchit argument. WE ALREADY HAVE THEM (for those who fo NOT fully support the 2nd amendment as drnos pointed out).
Reasonable you can see the current push two ways:

1) dems who favor gun control are willing to IGNORE the fact that "assault style weapons" have not statistically killed as many people as (insert any random noun) and it makes them feel good or they believe helps re-election.

2) unpopular ideas require unpopular methods and this is as evil as 2nd amendment supports fear.


If you see those ^ two things as crazy or unreasonable then you are a among the sheep. If you believe #1 then I disagree but a reasonable conversation is possible.
Abrignac
13 years ago

Victor809: exactly! Circumstances have overtaken the purpose of the 2nd. I know gun control laws don't do what their supporters hope. But when 2nd amendment supporters waffle and say "I support banning bazookas, RPGs and tanks," well they don't fully support the 2nd amend.

drnos wrote:




So what's your point?????
drnos
  • drnos
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
13 years ago

So what's your point?????

Abrignac wrote:



Don't know that I really have one. 🤔 I admit I'm kinda confused on this.

I'm not trying to tell you "drop the 2nd Amendment, ban assault weapons (whatever that means), ban clips." I'm not saying "You can take my guns when you pry them..."

I think I'm really just pointing out that the way the world has changed, the 2nd Amendment, as originally conceived, is less relevant than any other right we have.
drnos
  • drnos
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
13 years ago

I do fully support the 2nd amendment I agued this very subject ad nauseum with brewha.

ZRX1200 wrote:



I'll want to look that thread up.

You and Victor are still looking through the wrong lense IMO. The US military (govt) has FAR overstepped it's bounds. We have no business or constitutional reason to be playing world police. That is the 800lbs gorilla in the room. The relationship between the public and their 2nd amendment rights have not changed the way that the Government and Military has. Stop breath think.

ZRX1200 wrote:



I'm sure I'm not following all of this. That we have ANY abridgement of our rights, the US courts have overstepped their bounds. But the "world police" point is lost on me. I am writing about domestic rights, so you will have to explain this 800 lb gorilla.

When someone is trying to take your rights you should immediately see that person as an enemy to your liberty and find out their reasons.

ZRX1200 wrote:



My essential point is that the 'right' for us to be absolutely, militarily equal with the US govt has been taken from us. Not only by the government, but by economic circumstances. It is irrelevant that courts have taken these rights if we couldn't hold them anyway.

"Reasonable gun laws" is a bullchit argument. WE ALREADY HAVE THEM (for those who fo NOT fully support the 2nd amendment as drnos pointed out).

ZRX1200 wrote:



I don't think the 2nd amendment allows anything like a "reasonable gun law." The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Reasonable you can see the current push two ways:

1) dems who favor gun control are willing to IGNORE the fact that "assault style weapons" have not statistically killed as many people as (insert any random noun) and it makes them feel good or they believe helps re-election.

2) unpopular ideas require unpopular methods and this is as evil as 2nd amendment supports fear.


If you see those ^ two things as crazy or unreasonable then you are a among the sheep. If you believe #1 then I disagree but a reasonable conversation is possible.

ZRX1200 wrote:



It is not crazy to say that any gun control is contrary to the 2nd amendment. Any infringement is infringement. But it is a physical, economic impossibility to arm yourself equal to the fed govt.
Abrignac
13 years ago

Don't know that I really have one. 🤔 I admit I'm kinda confused on this.

I'm not trying to tell you "drop the 2nd Amendment, ban assault weapons (whatever that means), ban clips." I'm not saying "You can take my guns when you pry them..."

I think I'm really just pointing out that the way the world has changed, the 2nd Amendment, as originally conceived, is less relevant than any other right we have.

drnos wrote:




Regardless of whether or not the second amendment is relevant or not really doesn't matter. This is another example of government's unlawful intrusion into the rights bestowed upon the citizens of the United States via the 2nd amendment. Period, end of debate!!!

If the gun control advocates want to take away arms, then they need to lead a SUCCESSFUL campaign to amend the constitution, 2/3's majority, 2/3's states ratify, etc.... Problem with that approach is it will not happen that way anytime soon. Since it hasn't been repealed, abolished, etc... My guess is enough citizens feel it is relevant regardless of the reason why.

MACS
13 years ago
I think that the military is made up of a lot of the "good ol' boys" we speak of. The vast majority are conservative thinkers.

I'd like to believe that if the gov't ever tried to use the military against its own people, they wouldn't comply.
Users browsing this topic