RayR
2 years ago

Don't know why you bother. RayRay sits on an island all by himself, oblivious to the happenings around him.

Abrignac wrote:



Hey! You're not supposed to read my posts. You blocked me...remember?
RayR
2 years ago
AlLeGeDlY Frankie and and his defender Anthony both believe in that "LIving Constitution" theory, a loose interpretation thing that evolves, changes over time, and adapts to new circumstances, without being formally amended. So why have a constitution at all if the words have no teeth, no meaning as to what the framers originally argued over and finally agreed on as to what the branches of general government shall and shall not be allowed to do and what powers were reserved to the individual states who comprised the compact?

So back to the globalist Nikki Haley, the notorious flip-flopper, back peddler, and kow·tower to the left. What does she believe about anything? What day is it? Which way is the wind blowing? Who does she have to pander to for votes and cash? That's pretty much it.








frankj1
2 years ago

Monticello July 12. 16.
Some men look at Constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, & deem them, like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. they ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well: I belonged to it, and labored with it. it deserved well of it’s country. it was very like the present, but without the experience of the present: and 40. years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading: and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent & untried changes in laws and constitutions ... but I know also that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind ... we might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

Thomas Jefferson
RayR
2 years ago

Monticello July 12. 16.
Some men look at Constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, & deem them, like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. they ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well: I belonged to it, and labored with it. it deserved well of it’s country. it was very like the present, but without the experience of the present: and 40. years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading: and this they would say themselves, were they to rise from the dead. I am certainly not an advocate for frequent & untried changes in laws and constitutions ... but I know also that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind ... we might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

Thomas Jefferson

frankj1 wrote:



That's nice Frank but it's an excerpt taken out of context from a letter concerning the Proposals to Revise the Virginia Constitution: I. Thomas Jefferson to “Henry Tompkinson” (Samuel Kercheval), 12 July 1816

Read the whole thing. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-10-02-0128-0002
It's interesting and he hits on a number of issues including "we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. we must make our election between economy & liberty, or profusion and servitude."

Jefferson was a de-centralizer and was for further decentralization so as to keep the principles of republicanism alive and was "certainly not an advocate for frequent & untried changes in laws and constitutions", especially those "rash & ruinous innovations" in the name of progress. If the movement to centralize power further from the people as has happened (not without some pushback from some states and some people who refused to acquiesce to the demands of the overlords) "if this avenue be shut to the call of sufferance it will make itself heard thro’ that of force, and we shall go on, as other nations are doing, in the endless circle of oppression, rebellion, reformation; & oppression, rebellion, reformation again, and so on forever."



frankj1
2 years ago
I am well aware of the context of the quote. However you choose to ignore the inarguable...such as his pluralizing the word Constitutions. That "s" on the end means he was referencing more than just the Constitution of Virginia but rather all Constitutions and the small minded short sighted future generations that would be dogmatic about refusing to acknowledge that times and minds change in ways unforeseen by the revered generations that came before and created the document(s).

He admits he was in the wrong as a young passionate man, true wisdom came over several decades.

Your misdirection attempts by singling out specific individual preferences are not germane to the discussion of the Constitution as a whole and how he felt about it being absolutely beyond amending.
And nowhere has it been suggested by me or Anthony or anyone I can think of that the process of change should be anything but gruelingly difficult.

He might also ask "how is that boys coat of yours fitting today?".
rfenst
2 years ago

Your dictionary definitions boy! How does one interpret them? Meaningless fluff, how do they explain the agenda of those authoritarian WEF globalists?

RayR wrote:


Word salad reply.
RayR
2 years ago
"Times and minds change in ways unforeseen" and not always for the better, Jefferson probably was too hopeful sometimes about the "progress of the human mind" but he realized that there were always people who would take the republic backward into corruption and tyranny if they gained power if the people forgot the basic principles of republican government. He had plenty of battles with members of the Federalist Party, who who plotted to centralize government. They were more nationalists than a party that adhered to the system of federalism.
Well, they are still around under different names doing mischief against the Constitution(s). Most commonly they ignore the Constitution or try to reinterpret the words away from their original meaning, and hope nobody notices.

Justice Scalia once described the difference between living constitution evolutionists versus originalists like himself.

“If you’re asking about fundamental method of interpretation, I think you’re asking about the major division, not just between the justices on the Court but in American jurisprudence generally. That is, there are those who think the Constitution is to be interpreted in such a way as to keep it up to date. That is to say, it does not mean today what it meant when it was adopted. Some of its provisions change in order to keep up with the times. My friend Justice Breyer has that view. The other view, which is held by people called originalists, and I’m one of them, is that the Constitution doesn’t change. If you want to change it, there is an amendment provision. Amend it. It’s not up to the Supreme Court to write a new Constitution by deciding that things that never were there all of a sudden are there.”



You can listen to the whole conversation between Scalia and Breyer here.
https://www.annenbergclassroom.org/resource/conversation-constitution-judicial-interpretation/ 

RobertHively
2 years ago

If everybody here, both alive and dead, agree that the Constitution should be followed or go through the tedious process of amendment to change it, then what is the debate?
Abrignac
2 years ago

If everybody here, both alive and dead, agree that the Constitution should be followed or go through the tedious process of amendment to change it, then what is the debate?

RobertHively wrote:



Let me know what you find out. As I haven’t seen anyone on the thread suggest otherwise.
RayR
2 years ago
But some people think the Constitution is ALIVE..IT"S ALIVE...IT''S ALIVE! Bwahahaha!
frankj1
2 years ago
ray wrote:
But some people think the Constitution is ALIVE..IT"S ALIVE...IT''S ALIVE! Bwahahaha!



Like Jefferson...when he grew up.

Tortoises move achingly slow too, but are very much alive.

Look, we can start a gofundme for alterations on that boyhood coat if it would help.
RayR
2 years ago

ray wrote:
But some people think the Constitution is ALIVE..IT"S ALIVE...IT''S ALIVE! Bwahahaha!



Like Jefferson...when he grew up.

Tortoises move achingly slow too, but are very much alive.

Look, we can start a gofundme for alterations on that boyhood coat if it would help.

frankj1 wrote:




I know Frankie, you think Jefferson was just a naive young man until he became a senior citizen because of one sentence taken from a letter.

Well, he was naive in one respect. Although he was firmly against a broad interpretation of the Constitution that living constitution people adhere to., he believed that a future generation would be wiser and correct those errors that led to a broad construction. You see, a living constitution has nothing to do with amendments as you think it is, it has to do with a broad construction that creates "things that never were there all of a sudden are there.” as Scalia said.


When an instrument admits two constructions, the one safe, the other dangerous, the one precise, the other indefinite, I prefer that which is safe and precise. I had rather ask an enlargement of power from the nation, where it is found necessary, than to assume it by a construction which would make our powers boundless. Our peculiar security is in possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction. I say the same as to the opinion of those who consider the grant of the treaty-making power as boundless. If it is, then we have no Constitution. If it has bounds, they can be no others than the definitions of the powers which that instrument gives. It specifies and delineates the operations permitted to the federal government, and gives all the powers necessary to carry these into execution. Whatever of these enumerated objects is proper for a law, Congress may make the law; whatever is proper to be executed by way of a treaty, the President and Senate may enter into the treaty; whatever is to be done by a judicial sentence, the judges may pass the sentence.

Nothing is more likely than that their enumeration of powers is defective. This is the ordinary case of all human works. Let us go on then perfecting it, by adding, by way of amendment to the Constitution, those powers which time and trial show are still wanting. . . . I confess, then, I think it important in the present case to set an example against broad construction by appealing for new power to the people. If, however, our friends shall think differently, certainly I shall acquiesce with satisfaction, confiding that the good sense of our country will correct the evil of construction when it shall produce ill effects. . . .Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Wilson Carey Nicholas (1803)



As lawyer and historian John V. Denson wrote in his book Reassessing the Presidency, "Jefferson failed to understand that the Constitution was written to protect the people from themselves and that to rely on those very people to correct defects in the Constitution, only when those defects had been already exploited for ulterior purposes, was foolish indeed."



Mr. Jones
2 years ago
Nikki Haley just announced her VICE PRESIDENTAL

P
I
C
K



IT IS DR. MADD VIBE....


D.M.V. IS MEEEESTAAAA VICE PRESIDENT
frankj1
2 years ago

I know Frankie, you think Jefferson was just a naive young man until he became a senior citizen because of one sentence taken from a letter.

Well, he was naive in one respect. Although he was firmly against a broad interpretation of the Constitution that living constitution people adhere to., he believed that a future generation would be wiser and correct those errors that led to a broad construction. You see, a living constitution has nothing to do with amendments as you think it is, it has to do with a broad construction that creates "things that never were there all of a sudden are there.” as Scalia said.



As lawyer and historian John V. Denson wrote in his book Reassessing the Presidency, "Jefferson failed to understand that the Constitution was written to protect the people from themselves and that to rely on those very people to correct defects in the Constitution, only when those defects had been already exploited for ulterior purposes, was foolish indeed."



RayR wrote:


throw all the people you want into this, but they are not remotely related to the point.

You've touted Jefferson from day one, and now you apologize for him, cuz he's been exposed? Fine friend you are.

It wasn't that he thought or said future generations would be wiser, but that they would live in times unimaginable to him and his generation...that was actually very wise. The same can be said of our children's grandchildren...we should be wise enough to realize we can not nor should not handcuff them either.

And we don't even own human beings! Cuz we know better than Jefferson and his contemporaries.

You've lost this one on the previous page.

Move on.
Mr. Jones
2 years ago
Boo Boo wins +1
Ray R loses -1
PO' PO' ray
Waaaa waaaa waaaaa
Love ya Ray ray...
HockeyDad
2 years ago

throw all the people you want into this, but they are not remotely related to the point.

You've touted Jefferson from day one, and now you apologize for him, cuz he's been exposed? Fine friend you are.

It wasn't that he thought or said future generations would be wiser, but that they would live in times unimaginable to him and his generation...that was actually very wise. The same can be said of our children's grandchildren...we should be wise enough to realize we can not nor should not handcuff them either.

And we don't even own human beings! Cuz we know better than Jefferson and his contemporaries.

You've lost this one on the previous page.

Move on.

frankj1 wrote:



With your declaration of victory, did you prove Nikki is a globalist or did you prove Nikki is not a globalist?

RayR
2 years ago
Boo Boo lost big time.

He didn't know what "living constitutionalism" meant. He thought it had to do with adding amendments to the Constitution.
Scalia tried to explain it to him, but it didn't sink in.
Jefferson tried to explain it to him but I guess his oldy-time words confused him.
Frankie uses his lefty presentist view of history as a backup. When all else fails talk about... SLAVERY.

But Frankie claims victory anyway in the face of defeat, kinda like Nikki Haily.

Mr. Jones is just his propaganda agent.
RayR
2 years ago
Nikki is gone, she's gone and canceled her campaign. Even her LEFTY voters couldn't save her.

I heard her say she really concerned about the national debt, spending is out of control and stuff...but she's in favor of spending pallets of cash for foreign interventionism and the MIC. 😕

As Haley Ends Republican Race, Survey Finds 92% Of Her Voters Approve Of Biden's Performance

BY TYLER DURDEN
WEDNESDAY, MAR 06, 2024 - 08:38 AM

Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley plans to end her campaign as early as Wednesday morning following her dismal results on Super Tuesday, The Wall Street Journal reported, citing people familiar with her plans.

Nikki Haley plans to suspend her Republican presidential primary bid in a speech Wednesday morning: WSJ

During last night's not-so-super-Tuesday, she only secured only a victory in one state - Vermont - out of the 15 states that held GOP contests; to go along with her 'victory' in the swamp (DC).

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/nikki-haley-will-exit-republican-presidential-race-after-super-tuesday-flop 

DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Nikki Haley just announced her VICE PRESIDENTAL

P
I
C
K



IT IS DR. MADD VIBE....


D.M.V. IS MEEEESTAAAA VICE PRESIDENT

Mr. Jones wrote:



I cudda been a contendah!

Seriously, how hard can being the VP really be? Look at all the examples since I've been alive. Only a couple ascended. What's the fun in that?!?

That all being said, I don't really see me in her selection process...at all. Don't believe in the UN. I loathe the WEF. The MIC what runs our government now? I can see Haley actually selecting Kameltoes for her VP because they could cackle together and share the same brain cells finishing each other's sentences!!!


PS: I don't even find her remotely attractive. I've given up tequila too.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Nikki Haley just announced her VICE PRESIDENTAL

P
I
C
K



IT IS DR. MADD VIBE....


D.M.V. IS MEEEESTAAAA VICE PRESIDENT

Mr. Jones wrote:

h

I cudda been a contendah!

Seriously, how hard can being the VP really be? Look at all the examples since I've been alive. Only a couple ascended. What's the fun in that?!?

That all being said, I don't really see me in her selection process...at all. Don't believe in the UN. I loathe the WEF. The MIC what runs our government now? I can see Haley actually selecting Kameltoes for her VP because they could cackle together and share the same brain cells finishing each other's sentences!!!


PS: I don't even find her remotely attractive. I've given up tequila too.

America dodged a bullet!
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