rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
2 years ago
If the Jewish state can be bullied into letting Hamas survive, how can any free nation defend itself?


WSJ

If Israel is prevented from defeating Hamas, we should be under no illusions about what it will mean for the future of democracy. If, under the pressure of internal Democratic politics and global public opinion, the Biden administration forces a “cease-fire” that leaves our closest ally in the region short of victory over an enemy that seeks to destroy it, sooner or later we shall all pay the price.

This isn’t only because Israel is a democratic nation fighting nihilist savages and theocratic tyrants, though it is that. It is because forcing it to succumb to moral outrage over the violence that invariably comes with waging war would represent the self-imposition of an inescapable restraint on our own ability to defend ourselves.

Of course Israel is battling, above all else, for its own survival. In a hostile region, it is also the sole standard-bearer of individual freedom, tolerant pluralism and self-rule. Contrast the condition of ethnic minorities, women, gays and dissidents in Israel with that of their counterparts anywhere else in the Middle East. We should give thanks every day for the sacrifices Israelis make at the fragile frontier of freedom.

Every Islamist terrorist Israel kills is one fewer threat to the rest of us. Every setback Israel can deal to the Iranian puppet masters of Hamas, Hezbollah and others inflicts a loss on the regime that is sworn to eliminate us, the “Great Satan,” and our allies. There is no historical evidence that appeasing enemies committed to our extinction ever keeps us safe.

But there’s a second sense in which the future of democracy is at stake in the bloody streets of Gaza. If Israel can somehow be bullied into forgoing victory over this enemy, our own capacity to wage wars inflicted on us will be dramatically diminished. We will have allowed a coalition of armchair media critics, far-left agitators and Islamist-sympathizing activists and governments to hold Israel to a standard no nation taking necessary measures to protect itself would ever be able to meet, a standard to which our enemies will certainly never hold themselves.

This reality of asymmetric warfare in the age of an all-seeing media and diminished faith in the virtues of our way of life has been on vivid display in the past week. After near-universal condemnation of Israel for the deaths of seven foreign aid workers in a drone attack, a British army veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq, who now serves at a senior level in the British government, put the event in context: “War requires levels of violence and destruction that few truly understand. It requires an acceptance of human suffering among innocents that is unimaginable to most. There is no such thing as a clean war. This one is more visual but not substantially worse than those I fought in,” he told me via text message.

We should be clear about what happened last week on the hazy battlefield of Gaza. The tragic error that resulted in the deaths of those brave and innocent souls was heartbreaking, but it was error. If accidents like this are deemed to discredit and delegitimize Israel’s war effort, then we can forget about our own ability to take the fight to our enemies when we need to. We will have institutionalized an asymmetric form of warfare that we simply can’t win.

Israel has been more scrupulous in its campaign than most armies in history. In World War II the British political and military leadership decided on a strategy they called—in what must rank as one of the most cynical euphemisms in history—“dehousing” German civilians: bombing cities to a level of destruction that would demoralize their inhabitants and make them turn on their Nazi government. The British people tolerated this morally doubtful approach because they had fresh in their minds the memory of the Blitz, when the Nazis successfully “dehoused” many British citizens.

Israel suffered an atrocity on Oct. 7 comparable to the Blitz yet has worked with restraint to limit inevitable civilian losses. If it can’t even be allowed to do that, we are placing impossible shackles on the fighting ability of democratic nations.

Condemning and isolating our only real friend and ally in the Middle East will leave in place the people who perpetrated the Oct. 7 massacre and their sponsors. If this is the way we fight modern wars, our enemies will have freedom to commit acts of bestial savagery on us, knowing that our own scruples will give them an insuperable advantage.

And in demanding that a democratic country conduct war to standards that have never been met by any belligerent in history—and could never be met—we will be signaling the ultimate surrender of our own democracy too.

RobertHively
2 years ago
This entire article seems like nothing but propaganda to me (Yes, I read it)

Israel bombed an embassy in another sovereign country. They bombed/killed the damn lunch lady for God's sake, and the WSJ basically said **** happens, and look over here at these other atrocities that happened decades ago.

What happened to the wests "enlightenment"?

Some people, myself included, can see the genocide taking place over there. Imo people either don't care or don't "speak up" out of fear of being called anti-semitic.

I know a lot of nuance can be lost using this type of format to communicate. So I'll tell you guys that I am not upset, triggered, or anything like that. It is what it is.

I simply do not support Israel's genocide of the Palestinians whatsoever, and I'm not a "far-left agitator and Islamist-sympathizing activist." Just a guy that doesn't enjoy seeing an entire group of people being wiped off of the earth.

If the roles were reversed I would say the same for the Israeli's. If Palestine had the army, air force, and USA Inc's printing press, I'd speak out against the genocide of the Israeli's. Period.
ZRX1200
2 years ago
Many layers to this onion.

And most folks without a dog in the fight think both should exist. The terror tactics of the POS the Palestinians voted FOR need to stop. And Israel seemingly waits too long then acts very harshly.

Not saying any of this is right or wrong just my thoughts on views.

They’re our ally, we need to test them as such and we also need to quit with the “aid” which is a really a money making/laundering scheme. And honestly I would ask this, HOW is Israel supposed to squash those that would/have done terrorist acts and win hearts and minds? This conundrum has been around longer than I.
rfenst
  • rfenst
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
2 years ago

... And honestly I would ask this, HOW is Israel supposed to squash those that would/have done terrorist acts and win hearts and minds? This conundrum has been around longer than I.

ZRX1200 wrote:



Nothing because the two are mutually exclusive.
ZRX1200
2 years ago
Like pretending gun control works when you can’t legislate evil?

I agree.
RayR
2 years ago
I believe that all governments are corrupt and criminal organizations, thieves, and killers. if they don't start that way, they will soon become just that as the proles get lured into blindly believing their politicians and bureaucracies are trustworthy, wise and competent and exist only to protect them from evil. I know some people don't like that kind of talk because you know it's that patriotism stuff.

It's refreshing when you get away from the pablum that is fed by the news media and someone tells it like it is from a different perspective..
Was October 7th like Fort Sumter in April 1861?

Palestinian Confederates

By Thomas DiLorenzo
April 10, 2024

As a student of American history I can’t help but notice the striking similarity between what is going on today in Gaza and what went on some 160 years ago in the U.S. In 1861 Abraham Lincoln thanked his naval commander, Gustavus Fox, for helping him dupe the South Carolina Confederates into firing on Fort Sumter by placing warships in Charleston Harbor. No one was harmed let alone killed by the bombing of the fort, but Lincoln used it as an excuse to send an initial 75,000-man army to invade eleven Southern states and wage total war on the civilian population for four years.

Today we are supposed to believe that Israel’s vaunted Mossad, assisted by the CIA and the massive American “intelligence community,” the Pentagon, and the entire might of the U.S. military-industrial complex, was totally surprised by Palestinians on motor bikes and on foot who easily and conveniently broke through the “impregnable” barriers into Israel. According to news reports, it was as easy as with the January 6, 2021 protesters who, after being invited in by the police, entered the U.S. Capitol building. The motor bike riding Palestinians did some barbaric and reprehensible things, randomly shooting and killing hundreds of innocent Israeli citizens (although there is now evidence that many of the Israeli victims were victims of “friendly fire” by their own military). As the entire world now knows, the government of Israel, like Lincoln, used this event as a reason to wage total war on all Palestinians in Gaza, women and children included.

By the mid nineteenth century international law had evolved to the point where everyone understood that intentionally targeting civilians was a war crime that deserved the severest of punishments, and such punishments did occur. Lincoln single handedly turned all of that on its head by waging total war on the civilian population of the South from the very beginning of his war. Indeed, his initial war plan was called “the Anaconda plan” because it sought to surround and blockade the entire South and literally starve out its population by depriving it of food, medicine, and much else. American court historians such as James McPherson and Stephen Oates have used words like “brilliant” and “an act of genius” to describe the waging of war on Southern civilians by the U.S. Army (with the help of thousands of new immigrants from Europe).

McPherson has written that some 50,000 Southern civilians, women and children included, were killed by Lincoln’s armies. Coming from James McPherson that is probably a gross underestimate. Today’s population is more than ten times what it was in the 1860s, so that would be the equivalent of the U.S. government today murdering more than 500,000 American citizens. As Robert Penn Warren wrote in his book, The Legacy of the Civil War, all of this mass killing and the destruction of entire cities was said to have created a “treasury of virtue” within the U.S. government, so much so that whatever the government did in the future would be, by definition, virtuous because it was the U.S. government that was doing it. And if that doesn’t work, there’s always the quip by General Sherman that “war is hell.” That is meant to tell the public to just shut up about all the war crimes that Sherman committed. To the extent that the public does shut up, it makes it more likely that such crimes will be repeated over and over, as they have been.

More...

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2024/04/thomas-dilorenzo/palestinian-confederates/ 





DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Nothing because the two are mutually exclusive.

rfenst wrote:



No, they're not. Other than being humans (and I'm using the term so lightly with the Palestenians) they share NOTHING in common.


The Palestinians are terrorists. There's a reason why no other Arab nation would admit them into their country and absorb them. They will try to overthrow their host government there too. They all know it because it was the game they were all in on playing. A very sick game I might add.

Here's the 1st 10 links when I put "no Arab nation wants the Palestinians" into a search engine.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277 

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/10/18/explainer-why-arent-arab-countries-taking-in-palestinians/ 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-03/arab-countries-unwilling-accept-palestinian-refugees-gaza 

https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-why-arab-nations-dont-want-to-take-in-palestinian-refugees-from-gaza-648913 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/5/14/the-arab-world-has-forsaken-the-palestine-cause 

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/12/1218388766/egypt-israel-gaza-palestinians-hamas 

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/10/14/23914904/arab-world-israel-palestine-conflict-middle-east 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/05/israel-palestine-iran-saudi-arabia/618904/https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/30/arab-leaders-must-walk-the-talk-on-palestine 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-states-say-palestinians-must-stay-their-land-war-escalates-2023-10-13/ 

https://www.jns.org/why-are-arab-states-rejecting-the-palestinian-cause/ 
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After what they recently did inside of Israel??? Who are we as a nation to deny them their retribution from an act of Terror? No, let them clean house and do it quick. The longer that this goes on, the more the ill informed low IQ individuals try to claim some "high ground". Nobody will make martyrs out of them. Even if they did...they do so at their own peril and most likely would STFU because they know how hard the fist coming down upon them will be.
Stogie1020
2 years ago
All due respect, RobertHively, but if Israel wanted to kill every man, woman and child in Gaza, it would be done in about 48 hours.

There is no genocide going on.

Gazans decided that they wanted to be ruled by a lunatic terrorist organization. Gazans overwhelmingly support what their government did on 10/7. Many Gazans assisted their government in committing the atrocities on 10/7. Many other Gazans offer support and shelter to their government post 10/7. In fact, released hostages have said they were kept locked up as prisoners in the homes of everyday families.

Now those Gazans are saying "hey, no fair" because they are civilians. Except they aren't.

This is a classic case of "F&ck around and find out". They just don't like the consequences of their actions.

There was a hostage, a Russian, who managed to escape his captors and was hiding in Gaza hoping to get back to the IDF or to Israel. Gazan citizens found him and took him back to their government.
MACS
2 years ago

This entire article seems like nothing but propaganda to me (Yes, I read it)

Israel bombed an embassy in another sovereign country. They bombed/killed the damn lunch lady for God's sake, and the WSJ basically said **** happens, and look over here at these other atrocities that happened decades ago.

What happened to the wests "enlightenment"?

The entire world can see the genocide taking place over there. Imo people either don't care or don't "speak up" out of fear of being called anti-semitic.

I know a lot of nuance can be lost using this type of format to communicate. So I'll tell you guys that I am not upset, triggered, or anything like that. It is what it is.

I simply do not support Israel's genocide of the Palestinians whatsoever, and I'm not a "far-left agitator and Islamist-sympathizing activist." Just a guy that doesn't enjoy seeing an entire group of people being wiped off of the earth.

If the roles were reversed I would say the same for the Israeli's. If Palestine had the army, air force, and USA Inc's printing press, I'd speak out against the genocide of the Israeli's. Period.

RobertHively wrote:



That's a giant pile of crap, right there. ONE side wants the other side wiped out. Israel has never started a damn thing with Palestine and has only responded when ATTACKED FIRST.

Tell me where I am wrong... I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.
RayR
2 years ago
"Genocide" is too strong of a word. It's more like counterterrorism by using terrorism targeting noncombatants.
RobertHively
2 years ago


Palestinian Confederates

By Thomas DiLorenzo
April 10, 2024





RayR wrote:





^
This.

I'll add that it couldn't possibly be about land (Israeli settlements) and resources (The Leviathan gas field off of the coast of Gaza) like I mentioned when this started last year.

Also, the article failed to mention the mighty Hamas air force. Their state of the art warplanes consist of a parachute strapped to a seat with wheels, with a 2-stroke engine mounted on the seat, hooked up to a propeller. It's easy to see how Israel was overrun.

I could take the engine off of my commercial grade trimmer and build one myself if Joe Sanostra ever sends those F-16's to kill me because I wont relinquish my 2nd amendment rights.
RobertHively
2 years ago

That's a giant pile of crap, right there. ONE side wants the other side wiped out. Israel has never started a damn thing with Palestine and has only responded when ATTACKED FIRST.

Tell me where I am wrong... I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

MACS wrote:




Lol! I was wrong. Clearly. I will edit my post to reflect that.
RobertHively
2 years ago

"Genocide" is too strong of a word. It's more like counterterrorism by using terrorism targeting noncombatants.

RayR wrote:




Yeah, you could also go with "war crimes".

Is the genocide of a civilian population by an opposing army a war crime?

What about "ethnic cleansing"? That sounds better.
Stogie1020
2 years ago

Yeah, you could also go with "war crimes".

Is the genocide of a civilian population by an opposing army a war crime?

What about "ethnic cleansing"? That sounds better.

RobertHively wrote:


As I said, if Israel wanted to rid the world of Gazans, it would be done in 48 hours. They have the ammunition and equipment.

If you (for some reason) believe the Hamas death figure of 30K (over the course of 6 months), then mathematically that averages out to 166 dead per day. Israel is the most ridiculously inefficient genocid-er ever. I mean there are a few million people in Gaza. This is going to take years!

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers 

There is no ethnic cleansing, no genocide.

Ask any Israeli if they want Gazans wiped from the face of the earth and they will generally all say they just want them to "stop attacking Israel".

However, ask any Gazan if they want Israelis wiped from the face of the earth and you will surely find a different mindset. It's right there inthe UNRWA textbooks.
MACS
2 years ago

As I said, if Israel wanted to rid the world of Gazans, it would be done in 48 hours. They have the ammunition and equipment.

There is no ethnic cleansing, no genocide.

Ask any Israeli if they want Gazans wiped from the face of the earth and they will generally all say they just want them to "stop attacking Israel".

However, ask any Gazan if they want Israelis wiped from the face of the earth and you will surely find a different mindset. It's right there inthe UNRWA textbooks.

Stogie1020 wrote:



Some people, myself included, agree with you... Clearly there is no talking actual sense into some people who aren't looking at the big picture.
Stogie1020
2 years ago

Some people, myself included, agree with you... Clearly there is no talking actual sense into some people who aren't looking at the big picture.

MACS wrote:


People will believe what they want to believe.

I edited my post, take a look at the link to the "Death figures" analysis. Laughable.
RobertHively
2 years ago

Some people, myself included, agree with you... Clearly there is no talking actual sense into some people who aren't looking at the big picture.

MACS wrote:




Bigger picture, just go back to the Sykes-Pecot agreement. That's a start.

But that would mean the land on which many Israeli settlements sit, would revert back to Palestine.

Aint happening.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Bigger picture, just go back to the Sykes-Pecot agreement. That's a start.

But that would mean the land on which many Israeli settlements sit, would revert back to Palestine.

Aint happening.

RobertHively wrote:



There is no Palestine on the map. Gonna have to deal with that one.
RobertHively
2 years ago

There is no Palestine on the map. Gonna have to deal with that one.

DrMaddVibe wrote:



Or Israel
Stogie1020
2 years ago

Or Israel

RobertHively wrote:


Sorry Bud, it's there and I have been... Lot's of Arabs living in Israel, too. Not so many Jews living in Gaza...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Israel/ 
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