jeebling
2 years ago
Thanks, that does help me understand the case. It looks like the prosecution is trying to stretch a misdemeanor into a felony strictly for political purposes. I dunno. Maybe I’m just too thick in the head to see how this is a virtuous undertaking. In my opinion as just a guy reading the magazine articles and discussing it here, it looks like a politically motivated hit squad is trying to ruin DJT’s chances of running for office.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Thanks, that does help me understand the case. It looks like the prosecution is trying to stretch a misdemeanor into a felony strictly for political purposes. I dunno. Maybe I’m just too thick in the head to see how this is a virtuous undertaking. In my opinion as just a guy reading the magazine articles and discussing it here, it looks like a politically motivated hit squad is trying to ruin DJT’s chances of running for office.

jeebling wrote:



You've got it. The main rub, the prior NY DA refused to try the case...said there's "Not there there". Add in the statute of limitations tied to a NDA and it's laughable. The fact Cohen set it all up on his own? Yeah.
Abrignac
2 years ago

Thanks, that does help me understand the case. It looks like the prosecution is trying to stretch a misdemeanor into a felony strictly for political purposes. I dunno. Maybe I’m just too thick in the head to see how this is a virtuous undertaking. In my opinion as just a guy reading the magazine articles and discussing it here, it looks like a politically motivated hit squad is trying to ruin DJT’s chances of running for office.

jeebling wrote:



Now that you understand I’m going to muddy the waters.

Remember Robert Costello? He’s the lawyer that Trump’s attorney wanted to put on the stand. However the judge in the case was going to limit his testimony so the defense rested instead. Give me a minute and I’ll circle back to him.

One of the most important factors in a case is jurisdiction because it determines what set of laws govern an alleged act. Though generally thought to apply to a geographical area its borders are more accurately described by who those laws and actions relative to them affect. In many cases jurisdiction overlaps so proper jurisdiction is the one that serves the most citizens.

If I had to guess part of Costello’s testimony would be an explanation as to why federal and not state election laws would be proper jurisdiction. He would say that since it is a national election and affects all citizens of the US and not specifically only citizens of the state of New York. This is very important because if federal election laws have jurisdiction then the New York court system is improper venue for the election interference charge. Without that charge then the falsification of business records charges also disappear because they are too old to prosecute.

On top of that Costello might also have testified that their is no prohibition in federal law election law that would have prevented Trump from knowingly paying off the whore.

At the end of the day I expect a hung jury. However, should Trump be found guilty I’d expect he would file an emergency appeal directly to the SCOTUS asking them to throw the verdict out consistent with the recent Colorado ruling where they said that states have no authority to regulate federal elections because by doing so one state could outlaw what another state found to be perfectly legal. If that happens then again the business records cases would also be thrown out because the prosecutor waited too long to bring them.
Devildog1992
2 years ago
The case against Trump is literally falling apart quickly with lies coming from his former lawyer and Stormy Daniels is a joke, lying whore! So ya Trump is going to walkway with the 47th presidency cause the Democrats are so much into to make him disappear that Trump gets so more well known that he’s pointing out the flaws of what the democrats are doing, waking up all the US Citizens! So on November 5th break open your best Cigar and celebrate for change of the much better and welcome back Trump into the Oval Office!
rfenst
2 years ago
^

First post!
Speyside2
2 years ago
Interesting Athony. Isn't what Costello said in direct conflict with the 10th amendment?
jeebling
2 years ago
Anthony, I’m following what you’re saying and I appreciate your patience. I think this whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Abrignac
2 years ago

Interesting Athony. Isn't what Costello said in direct conflict with the 10th amendment?

Speyside2 wrote:



Not sure what you’re referring to. Please elaborate.
Abrignac
2 years ago

Anthony, I’m following what you’re saying and I appreciate your patience. I think this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

jeebling wrote:



I can make arguments for both sides. At the end of the day either Trump walks or this goes all the way to the SCOTUS. Until either happens the roller coaster ride will continue.

I’d suggest ignoring the talking heads. Every “media” person commenting on this case is doing so from a personal political position. As they say “it ain’t over till the fat lady sings.”
rfenst
2 years ago

Anthony, I’m following what you’re saying and I appreciate your patience. I think this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

jeebling wrote:


Even if the jury or judge acquits at the end of the case?
I suspect you would not think that stinks.
"It ain't over 'till the fat lady sings."
rfenst
2 years ago

I’d suggest ignoring the talking heads. Every “media” person commenting on this case is doing so from a personal political position. As they say “it ain’t over till the fat lady sings.”

Abrignac wrote:


There is a former FBI Chief Counsel, Andrew Weissman, who appears as a guest on MSNBC. He explains things very clearly, predicts where things might head and gives excellent legal analysis.
HockeyDad
2 years ago
MSNBC? Aren’t they calling for this to be a death penalty sentence?
rfenst
2 years ago

MSNBC? Aren’t they calling for this to be a death penalty sentence?

HockeyDad wrote:


I think he is the best and brightest analyst and, certainly more eloquent when explaining the law form both sides. I have watched Fox, CNN and MSNB and he is the best pundit for a straight explanation and answer.
Speyside2
2 years ago
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

To me this implies a New York state issue. I find no constitutionally delegated powers to turn this into a federal case. In principal I agree with Costello, but I do not think the constitution does, I do not make any claim to being sure of my take on this. Robert, perhaps you could add some insight?
rfenst
2 years ago

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

To me this implies a New York state issue. I find no constitutionally delegated powers to turn this into a federal case. In principal I agree with Costello, but I do not think the constitution does, I do not make any claim to being sure of my take on this. Robert, perhaps you could add some insight?

Speyside2 wrote:


The jury can collectively understand the law as it is written in plain terms and any terms of legal significance will be explained in the jury instructions. Everyone in that courtroom can read the law as given by the trial judge. Trials don't include expert witnesses who describe to a jury how the law should or should be or not be applied. That is the trial judge's exclusive duty.

State courts and federal courts have "concurrent jurisdiction" that overlaps when it comes to federal law. One can bring a federal claim in state court. The other side has the opportunity to "remove" to federal court when there is a ?federal question." Think in terms of a Section1983 claim against cops for beating a suspect unnecessarily. It's a federal civil rights violation. The lawsuit could end up in state court or federal court (where no lawyer wants to be). Where it is filed is determinned by the Plaintiff.
Abrignac
2 years ago

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

To me this implies a New York state issue. I find no constitutionally delegated powers to turn this into a federal case. In principal I agree with Costello, but I do not think the constitution does, I do not make any claim to being sure of my take on this. Robert, perhaps you could add some insight?

Speyside2 wrote:



The first point you make is powers not specifically delegated is reserved for the states. But, one could argue that this is an issue that IS delegated.

The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;—to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;—to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;—to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;—to Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State,—between Citizens of different States,—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Article III, Section 2 wrote:



Since this is a Federal election any dispute would be A) a controversy to which the United States and not solely the state of New York is a party to, and 😎 it affects multiple states so it is in fact a controversy between states since one state could makes laws saying a Presidential candidate could do C in state D that state E may say that same act is criminal in state E


Obviously this is not so cut and dry. Should Trump be found guilty it is assured that he will appeal this to the SCOTUS. So the important question is related to how the SCOTUS will rule. Until such a ruling is released it's impossible to know how the Court will rule. But one can look at rulings related to the issue at hand by the current Court to get an indication as to how it will view the case.

One place to look is at the opinion in DONALD J. TRUMP, PETITIONER v. NORMA ANDERSON, ET AL. Better known as the Colorado case to keep Trump off the ballot.



Finally, state enforcement of Section 3 with respect to the
Presidency would raise heightened concerns. “[I]n the con
text of a Presidential election, state-imposed restrictions
implicate a uniquely important national interest.” Ander
son v. Celebrezze, 460 U. S. 780, 794–795 (1983) (footnote
omitted). But state-by-state resolution of the question
whether Section 3 bars a particular candidate for President
from serving would be quite unlikely to yield a uniform an
swer consistent with the basic principle that “the President
. . . represent[s] all the voters in the Nation.” Id., at 795
(emphasis added).
Conflicting state outcomes concerning the same candi
date could result not just from differing views of the merits,
but from variations in state law governing the proceedings
that are necessary to make Section 3 disqualification deter
minations. Some States might allow a Section 3 challenge
to succeed based on a preponderance of the evidence, while
12
TRUMP v. ANDERSON
Per Curiam
others might require a heightened showing. Certain evi
dence (like the congressional Report on which the lower
courts relied here) might be admissible in some States but
inadmissible hearsay in others. Disqualification might be
possible only through criminal prosecution, as opposed to
expedited civil proceedings, in particular States. Indeed, in
some States—unlike Colorado (or Maine, where the secre
tary of state recently issued an order excluding former Pres
ident Trump from the primary ballot)—procedures for ex
cluding an ineligible candidate from the ballot may not
exist at all. The result could well be that a single candidate
would be declared ineligible in some States, but not others,
based on the same conduct (and perhaps even the same fac
tual record).

The “patchwork” that would likely result from state enforcement
would “sever the direct link that the Framers
found so critical between the National Government and the
people of the United States” as a whole. U. S. Term Limits,
514 U. S., at 822. But in a Presidential election “the impact
of the votes cast in each State is affected by the votes cast”—
or, in this case, the votes not allowed to be cast—“for the
various candidates in other States.” Anderson, 460 U. S.,
at 795. An evolving electoral map could dramatically
change the behavior of voters, parties, and States across the
country, in different ways and at different times. The dis
ruption would be all the more acute—and could nullify the
votes of millions and change the election result—if Section
3 enforcement were attempted after the Nation has voted.
Nothing in the Constitution requires that we endure such
chaos—arriving at any time or different times, up to and
perhaps beyond the Inauguration.
*
*
*
For the reasons given, responsibility for enforcing Section
3 against federal officeholders and candidates rests with
Congress and not the States. The judgment of the Colorado
Cite as: 601 U. S. ____ (2024)
Per Curiam
Supreme Court therefore cannot stand.

DONALD J. TRUMP, PETITIONER v. NORMA ANDERSON, ET AL. page 12-13 wrote:



Though that ruling deals with whose name appears on the ballot. However, it is quite clear that the current SCOTUS unanimously agreed that it's Congress' responsibility to regulate federal elections to prevent a "patchwork" of regulations that could disenfranchise voters in individual states.

That said the glue that ties the alleged criminal acts which under ordinary circumstances would not be prosecutable due to a statute of limitations issue is a federal issue that at face value would not fall under concurrent jurisdiction thereby rendering the New York indictment mute.




Abrignac
2 years ago

The jury can collectively understand the law as it is written in plain terms and any terms of legal significance will be explained in the jury instructions. Everyone in that courtroom can read the law as given by the trial judge. Trials don't include expert witnesses who describe to a jury how the law should or should be or not be applied. That is the trial judge's exclusive duty.

State courts and federal courts have "concurrent jurisdiction" that overlaps when it comes to federal law. One can bring a federal claim in state court. The other side has the opportunity to "remove" to federal court when there is a ?federal question." Think in terms of a Section1983 claim against cops for beating a suspect unnecessarily. It's a federal civil rights violation. The lawsuit could end up in state court or federal court (where no lawyer wants to be). Where it is filed is determinned by the Plaintiff.

rfenst wrote:



Based on what I have read about concurrent jurisdiction it refers to cases where a particular act would be a violation of both federal and state law. In that case the plaintiff has the prerogative of choosing venue. On the other hand federal jurisdiction is reserved for cases that involve issues spanning multiple states.

In this case the prosecutor is essentially bringing a case that deals with campaign financing of a Presidential election. His basis is violations of a New York law that are beyond the statute of limitations. Considering the Colorado decision the Court has signaled it views regulating a Presidential election the responsibility of Congress so it is reasonable to believe they would rule against New York in this case.


rfenst
2 years ago
@75
It is a hell of a lot more complex than the words from the constitution. Over time, jurisdiction has generally been determined by SCOTUS cases, of which there are a significant slew.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

There is a former FBI Chief Counsel, Andrew Weissman, who appears as a guest on MSNBC. He explains things very clearly, predicts where things might head and gives excellent legal analysis.

rfenst wrote:




Sorry did you say FBI?


Yeah **** him!
Speyside2
2 years ago
In 75 I clearly stated I was unsure about what I thought and asked for some insight from you. In ^79 you appear to be disparaging my ability to think or implying that it was inappropriate for me present my thoughts on the subject.
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