Abrignac
2 years ago
Regardless if I were on the jury I’d vote to acquit.

Think about it. Should what he was charged with even be a crime? What is the difference between paying off a whore to keep quiet and paying for opposition research? Nothing since both are meant to influence an election.

If they wanted to prosecute him it should have been for the tax deduction but they missed that boat.

This nothing but an example of using the court system to silence an opponent.
Brewha
2 years ago

Regardless if I were on the jury I’d vote to acquit.

Think about it. Should what he was charged with even be a crime? What is the difference between paying off a whore to keep quiet and paying for opposition research? Nothing since both are meant to influence an election.

If they wanted to prosecute him it should have been for the tax deduction but they missed that boat.

This nothing but an example of using the court system to silence an opponent.

Abrignac wrote:



and I thought you understood the law....
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Regardless if I were on the jury I’d vote to acquit.

Think about it. Should what he was charged with even be a crime? What is the difference between paying off a whore to keep quiet and paying for opposition research? Nothing since both are meant to influence an election. If they wanted to prosecute him it should have been for the tax deduction but they missed that boat.

Abrignac wrote:



Lemme see...the previous state AG wouldn't take the case. Misdemeanors...no Federal angle...statute of limitations expired...but once the current POS got the gig...sucked some Soros cawk...bazinga! Let's go Brandon!!!!

All of the cases are a joke. All of them. We've said far worse on this board than ever came out of Trump's mouth. It's because the DNC cannot risk a 2nd term. The Great Uncovering will happen. To me the biggest crime is Biden putting the Executive Branch in the crosshairs of the SCOTUS and willing to clip its wings. He really is a criminal.
DrafterX
2 years ago
That Bassard..!! 😠
jeebling
2 years ago

Yeah, I am pretty sure it's him.
Read what I highlighted. It's pretty much straight legal analysis about evidence and witnesses.

rfenst wrote:



Basically the prosecution has to prove that DJT personally made these payments in this particular manner and that DJT personally recorded these payments in the manner the prosecution claims and with full understanding of what he was doing because he wanted to affect the election? Maybe DJT didn’t sit at the computer and personally input the keystrokes but he told someone exactly what to do?
rfenst
2 years ago

Basically the prosecution has to prove that DJT personally made these payments in this particular manner and that DJT personally recorded these payments in the manner the prosecution claims and with full understanding of what he was doing because he wanted to affect the election? Maybe DJT didn’t sit at the computer and personally input the keystrokes but he told someone exactly what to do?

jeebling wrote:


Who knows?
You can read the transcripts of the trial at:

https://pdfs.nycourts.gov/PeopleVs.DTrump-71543/transcripts/4-22-2024.pdf
jeebling
2 years ago
But is that the prosecution’s burden? I will look at the link but I’m not sure I’ll get my answer there. I’m wondering of what the prosecution has to convince the jury? I’ll keep searching and I’ll look at the link. Thank you, rfenst.
rfenst
2 years ago

But is that the prosecution’s burden? I will look at the link but I’m not sure I’ll get my answer there. I’m wondering of what the prosecution has to convince the jury? I’ll keep searching and I’ll look at the link. Thank you, rfenst.

jeebling wrote:


Documents enter into evidence and testimony other than from Cohen or Daniels.
Speyside2
2 years ago
Jeebs, I think the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt Trump knew of the payments and he knew they were for hiding the affair from the voters before the election. This would criminal fraud and a felony. Otherwise, it is not a criminal case, it is civil case, unless it would be tax fraud, which it was not as far as I can tell. Of course, regarding tax fraud I am rather ignorant.
jeebling
2 years ago
Thanks, Spey. I thought it was already accepted that the payment was for her silence hence the NDA. I must have assumed too much. If that is all they have to prove, Trump is in for big trouble I think. I don’t see how this is against the law though. Does not really seem like it rises to the level of a “crime” when I think about it. I don’t know much about how the justice system works though.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Jeebs, I think the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt Trump knew of the payments and he knew they were for hiding the affair from the voters before the election. This would criminal fraud and a felony. Otherwise, it is not a criminal case, it is civil case, unless it would be tax fraud, which it was not as far as I can tell. Of course, regarding tax fraud I am rather ignorant.

Speyside2 wrote:




Having a NDA isn't illegal. Cohen set this all in motion. Funded it with a HELOC with his own house. He's a real "Mr.Fix-It" with a tape recorder! Cohen even said he did it all by himself with no request from Trump.

All the prosecution has done is muddy the waters with testimony from Daniels and had the whole case torpedoed by their "star witness" ratface fink Cohen himself!

The criminally acting "judge" on this case is doing the heavy lifting FOR the prosecution in concerted effort. Who doesn't allow expert testimony for the defense? Especially when the man helped craft the laws for this? Strips away a man's First Amendment right to Free Speech? This case is ripe for recusal, if the case is prosecuted it will be reversed by the higher court almost automatically. I'd like to claim unanimously too but it is New York.
rfenst
2 years ago

Thanks, Spey. I thought it was already accepted that the payment was for her silence hence the NDA. I must have assumed too much. If that is all they have to prove, Trump is in for big trouble I think. I don’t see how this is against the law though. Does not really seem like it rises to the level of a “crime” when I think about it. I don’t know much about how the justice system works though.

jeebling wrote:


1. NDA is not a crime. Trump is not charged with this.

2. He is charged with two things:

A) Using corporate money (before taxes) to pay Cohen/false business record(s); and
B) Doing so to hide the information relative to the election in contradiction of state or federal law.

My bet is ahung jury but JNOV (judgement notwithstanding a guilty verdict by judge)- which would end the case.

I am guessing hung jury.
rfenst
2 years ago

...

DrMaddVibe wrote:

Who doesn't allow expert testimony for the defense? Especially when the man helped craft the laws for this? Strips away a man's First Amendment right to Free Speech? This case is ripe for recusal, if the case is prosecuted it will be reversed by the higher court almost automatically. I'd like to claim unanimously too but it is New York.

The law says what it says what it says. Presume the jury can read words.

If it the law's difficult to understand, the judge will go to great length to explain it. The trial judge is arbiter of the law at trial. I have never seen expert testimony on how to interpret a law.

The jury will get the law in writing (and can even get questions of law answered by the judge during deliberations).
It is contained in both the instructions and verdict form).

It does not matter who wrote it. Expert witnesses are only allowed when the knowledge and understanding of the evidence (not law) requires an explanation outside of the jury's collective common knowledge.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

The law says what it says what it says. Presume the jury can read words.

If it the law's difficult to understand, the judge will go to great length to explain it. The trial judge is arbiter of the law at trial. I have never seen expert testimony on how to interpret a law.

The jury will get the law in writing (and can even get questions of law answered by the judge during deliberations).
It is contained in both the instructions and verdict form).

It does not matter who wrote it. Expert witnesses are only allowed when the knowledge and understanding of the evidence requires an explanation outside of the jury's collective common knowledge.

rfenst wrote:



Robert, I don't believe you're really following this case too well. The judge is NOT saying any of what you're suggesting. At all.

I was inside the court when the judge closed the Trump trial, and what I saw shocked me


I have observed and participated in trials throughout the world. I have seen justice and injustice in China, Russia, Ukraine, England, France, Italy, Israel, as well as in nearly 40 of our 50 states.

But in my 60 years as a lawyer and law professor, I have never seen a spectacle such as the one I observed sitting in the front row of the courthouse yesterday.

The judge in Donald Trump’s trial was an absolute tyrant, though he appeared to the jury to be a benevolent despot. He seemed automatically to be ruling against the defendant at every turn.

Many experienced lawyers raised their eyebrows when the judge excluded obviously relevant evidence when offered by the defense, while including irrelevant evidence offered by the prosecution.

But when the defense’s only substantive witness, the experienced attorney Robert Costello, raised his eyebrows at one of New York Supreme Court Justice Juan Merchan’s rulings, the court went berserk.

Losing his cool and showing his thin skin, the judge cleared the courtroom of everyone including the media.

For some reason, I was allowed to stay, and I observed one of the most remarkable wrong-headed biases I have ever seen. The judge actually threatened to strike all of Costello’s testimony if he raised his eyebrows again.

That of course would have been unconstitutional because it would have denied the defendant his Sixth Amendment right to confront witnesses and to raise a defense.

It would have punished the defendant for something a witness was accused of doing.

Even if what Costello did was wrong, and it was not, it would be utterly improper and unlawful to strike his testimony — testimony that undercut and contradicted the government’s star witness.

The judge’s threat was absolutely outrageous, unethical, unlawful and petty.

Moreover, his affect while issuing that unconstitutional threat revealed his utter contempt for the defense and anyone who testified for the defendant.

The public should have been able to see the judge in action, but because the case is not being televised, the public has to rely on the biased reporting of partisan journalists.

But the public was even denied the opportunity to hear from journalists who saw the judge in action because he cleared the courtroom.

I am one of the few witnesses to his improper conduct who remained behind to observe his deep failings.

Even when journalists do report on courtroom proceedings, their accounts must be taken with a grain of salt. When you watch CNN or MSNBC, you generally see an account of a trial that never took place.

They spin the events so much that reality is totally distorted.

I experienced that distortion firsthand yesterday, when I saw one of my former students and research assistants, a CNN legal analyst named Norman Eisen, during a break and went over to him and asked him about his family. We chatted for a few minutes in the most friendly way.

But NBC, the Daily Beast and other media decided to make up a story about the event. They claimed that I had a spat with my nemesis, rather than a friendly conversation with a former student.

Their account was made up, yet it was circulated through the media.

To his credit, Eisen wrote to the media to correct the account, saying that the person sitting next to him would confirm the media’s false reporting. I doubt we will see a retraction.

This minor incident is simply the tip of a very large and deep iceberg of false reporting about the trial that can only occur because the proceedings are not being televised.

There are television cameras in the courtroom, and they record and transmit every word, but not to the public; only select reporters in the overflow room see what the cameras transmit.

There is absolutely no good reason why a trial of this importance, or any trial, should not be televised live and in real time.

Allowing the public to see their courts in action is the best guarantee of fairness.

As Justice Louis Brandeis wisely said a century ago, “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

When I was a kid growing up in Brooklyn, we used to listen to the colorful account of Dodger games rendered by Red Barber on the radio.

Once television came along and everyone could watch the games live, the accounts became far more accurate, because we could see everything for ourselves.

A similar phenomenon would operate if trials were televised; it would force commentators to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

Today there is no check on partisan reporting of trials and exaggerations and personal opinions are rampant.

The American public is the loser.

Alan Dershowitz is a professor emeritus at Harvard Law School.

https://nypost.com/2024/05/21/opinion/i-was-inside-the-court-when-the-judge-closed-the-trump-trial-and-what-i-saw-shocked-me/ 


Said it before, I'll say it again...If they can do this to an ex-President that's all but secured the GOP nomination for a 2nd term and happens to be a billionaire...they can do it to you...AND THEY WILL!
rfenst
2 years ago



Robert, I don't believe you're really following this case too well. The judge is NOT saying any of what you're suggesting. At all. No one has said any of what I wrote yet. It is too early in the trial.
...

The judge in Donald Trump’s trial was an absolute tyrant, though he appeared to the jury to be a benevolent despot. He seemed automatically to be ruling against the defendant at every turn. Maybe that is what was warranted.

But when the defense’s only substantive witness (about what?), the experienced attorney Robert Costello, raised his eyebrows at one of New York Supreme Court Justice Juan Merchan’s rulings, the court went berserk. There was a hell of a lot more to it than that. What Costello did- read the transcript yourself- is grossly improper and unprofessional. If I did what he did in a courtroom, I'd be held in contempt.

Losing his cool and showing his thin skin, the judge cleared the courtroom of everyone including the media. Clearing the courtroom like he did is the proper way to do things.

For some reason, I was allowed to stay, and I observed one of the most remarkable wrong-headed biases I have ever seen. The judge actually threatened to strike all of Costello’s testimony if he raised his eyebrows again. Yep.

That of course would have been unconstitutional because it would have denied the defendant his Sixth Amendment right to confront witnesses and to raise a defense. False.

It would have punished the defendant for something a witness was accused of doing. He was called by the defense and the burden to control him was on them.

Even if what Costello did was wrong, and it was not, it would be utterly improper and unlawful to strike his testimony — testimony that undercut and contradicted the government’s star witness. Cohen did not give expert testimony. Defense wasn't entitled to use one to contradict him.

The judge’s threat was absolutely outrageous, unethical, unlawful and petty. Bullchit. He was being disrespected in front of the jury which is prejudicial to a fair outcome.
...

The public should have been able to see the judge in action, but because the case is not being televised, the public has to rely on the biased reporting of partisan journalists. YES!

Even when journalists do report on courtroom proceedings, their accounts must be taken with a grain of salt. When you watch CNN or MSNBC, you generally see an account of a trial that never took place.

They spin the events so much that reality is totally distorted.But the same statements don't apply to Derschowitz? LMFAO!

...

There is absolutely no good reason why a trial of this importance, or any trial, should not be televised live and in real time.
Allowing the public to see their courts in action is the best guarantee of fairness.

As Justice Louis Brandeis wisely said a century ago, “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.” YES.
...

Said it before, I'll say it again...If they can do this to an ex-President that's all but secured the GOP nomination for a 2nd term and happens to be a billionaire...they can do it to you...AND THEY WILL!

DrMaddVibe wrote:


LMFAO. He has a virtual "dream team" of lawyers superior to the prosecution.


And, f course, there is no way Derschowitz is unbiased.
ZRX1200
2 years ago
Thank goodness all the cases against Cheeto Jesus aren’t biased….
jeebling
2 years ago
Dershowitz has his bias, I believe. He’s also said more than once that he has voted for a Democrat in every election since 1960. He also said that the single issue that might deter him from voting for Biden in the next general election is how Biden handles the current crisis in Gaza. I think Dershowitz is brilliant but slimy and he’s a professed Liberal / Democrat. He’s not lining up properly like a good company man and so he catches hell from the left wing media. I’m no fan but I give him a little credit for pushing back against the BS.
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago
The Dersh has his bias. Most of the time he outwardly tells you upfront that they are too. I might not like whom he chooses to defend 100% of the time, but I've seen he's been a staunch Constituionalist. I cannot recall seeing him waiver in that.

In regards to this case...


A Familiar Pattern of Desperate Behavior Emerges When Lawfare Starts Failing



Julie Kelly attended court in Florida to watch the proceedings in Judge Cannon’s court around the Lawfare “document case” construct. {Direct Rumble Link} Alan Dershowitz attended court in New York City to watch the proceedings in Judge Merchan’s court around the Lawfare “hush money case” construct. Both Kelly and Dershowitz reported witnessing bizarre and unstable behavior from the left side of the Lawfare operation.

The modern political left is a cult. They have a definite derangement of the mind, and a hole -something missing- in their hearts. They envy the peace and joy they see in others. They are highly unsettled and unfulfilled. Many of them are manifestly evil. Leftists lack any sort of depth, meaning, courage and/or self-control. When challenged, they lose their **** when the weak nature of who they are is exposed.

Leftists are tribal because their weak psychology requires constant reaffirmation to exist in a world of logic, natural outcomes and non-pretending reality. Nature and the natural/spiritual world as exhibited does not align with their pretending and make believe. Just as the “rules of school” are artificial when compared to the “rules of the farm”, Lawfare is not in alignment with natural laws of right/wrong, good/bad, truth or lies.

At a certain point, the ideology of Lawfare -an emotional construct- has to engage and debate the world of commonsense, practical and logical thinking. It is precisely when this conflict is encountered that leftist behavior changes. The destabilized Lawfare mind becomes obvious, as both Alan Dershowitz and Julie Kelly bear witness.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2024/05/23/a-familiar-pattern-of-desperate-behavior-emerges-when-lawfare-stars-failing/?lctg=106867465 


Its comical to see them cling to whatever floats though...then that wave of Reality...and they come in sets of 3...
jeebling
2 years ago

1. NDA is not a crime. Trump is not charged with this.

2. He is charged with two things:

A) Using corporate money (before taxes) to pay Cohen/false business record(s); and
B) Doing so to hide the information relative to the election in contradiction of state or federal law.

My bet is ahung jury but JNOV (judgement notwithstanding a guilty verdict by judge)- which would end the case.

I am guessing hung jury.

rfenst wrote:



So the jury must be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew about and is therefore accountable for these things which are federal laws? Not NY laws? I’m not trying to be a bore about this. I’m trying not to let my bias impede my understanding. I just can’t understand clearly what is going on here and it leaves me thinking something fishy is going on. It appears to be layers of laws being ignored, bent, broken by the prosecution in cahoots with the judge, the media, and the DNC. Isn’t that what they call conspiracy? My Libertarianism is showing lol
Abrignac
2 years ago

So the jury must be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew about and is therefore accountable for these things which are federal laws? Not NY laws? I’m not trying to be a bore about this. I’m trying not to let my bias impede my understanding. I just can’t understand clearly what is going on here and it leaves me thinking something fishy is going on. It appears to be layers of laws being ignored, bent, broken by the prosecution in cahoots with the judge, the media, and the DNC. Isn’t that what they call conspiracy? My Libertarianism is showing lol

jeebling wrote:



Here’s the key points.

Trump is accused of illegally deducting what the prosecution claims are personal expenses expenses from a business New York tax filing. That being the payoff to the whore. Per NY law those are charges are Class A misdemeanors which under ordinary circumstances carries 2 year statute of limitations. Trump wasn’t charged until well after the statute of limitations expired.

However, if those misdemeanors are in the furtherance of a felony then the statute of limitations is extended to 5 years. So the prosecution is trying to prove that Trump paid the whore off to keep her quiet and therefore he fraudulently influenced an election which is a felony thus an extension of the statute of limitations from 2 years to 5 years. Trump was indicted approximately 3.25 years after the last misdemeanor.

Though the payoffs began after the election the prosecution claims the scheme began before the election because that’s when the negotiations began.

Hope this helps.
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