rfenst
15 years ago

Robert I hope you know I was calling the westborrough wackos maggots not the SCOTUS.

ZRX1200 wrote:



Never even crossed my mind. Wouldn't have taken offense if you had. But, you can call them whatever you want. That's the true Freedom of Speech we are so fortunate to earn!
JadeRose
15 years ago
The 30 best anti WBC protest signs.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-3o-best-anti-westboro-baptist-church-protest-s 


I'm proud to live in the only city in the country that passed an ordinance specifically outlawing these pricks. It was, of course, shot down but it is also local lore that Phelps was informed in a way that made him listen that he would do well to stay out of St. Joseph Missouri. He hasn't been back although he's threatened to. I live less than75 miles from Topeka and I've considered going down there to check it out but have decided to keep my distance. He's gonna piss off the wrong person one of these days. This is also the same area of the country that famously shot and killed a local bully about 30 years ago. The dude was gunned down in the street in broad daylight on Main street...and not a soul saw it happen. Even though he was hit (I think) 17 times.
rfenst
15 years ago

I find it hard to believe that a decent lawyer couldn't prove that the Westboro church was purposefully provoking the funeral crowd.

Face it, someone couldn't sit outside a church in Harlem holding a sign that said "god loves dead negroes".
Law enforcement would remove that person even without waiting for a local ammendment and they would do so swiftly for the safety of all involved.

The first ammendment allows the Westboro church to state their beliefs, and I would never want my government taking away that right. But it does NOT allow them to do so with provocation and bad intent.

Just like the previously mentioned Fire/Theater example.

tailgater wrote:




Tailgater,

The issues you brought are very complex and detailed- so much so that no one here likely has the time to do them real justice in writing. So, let's just keep "biting off" a little bit at a time. Moreover, it has been 20 years since I elected to take the Freedom of Speech class/symposium while I was in law school and I am, admittedly, just a bit "rusty". And, this is not "my" particular area of the law. Also, as much as some people here (myself excluded) may not care to read whatever Chili has to say, he and Jojoc are both very sharp- so perhaps they will help us out with the discussion- before anyone gets castigated by the minions.

Here goes: There is a lot more to the case than one would think. It was really a case about civil damages for claims based on, among other things, "intentional infliction of emotional distress", i.e conduct specifically designed to provoke mental upset- and whether a particular subdivision of "political speech" known as "public speech", served as an absolute defense to civil damages arising from such speech. The Court ruled that it did.

Here is a summary (citations omitted) of the crux of the Court's legal reasoning, taken directly from the Syllabus:

The Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment can serve as a defense in state tort suits, including suits for intentional infliction of emotional distress. Whether the First Amendment prohibits holding Westboro liable for its speech in this case turns largely on whether that speech is of public or private concern, as determined by all the circumstances of the case.

Speech on public issues occupies the highest rung of the hierarchy of First Amendment values and is entitled to special protection. Although the boundaries of what constitutes speech on matters of public concern are not well defined, this Court has said that speech is of public concern when it can be fairly considered as relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community, or when it is a subject of general interest and of value and concern to the public. A statement’s arguably “inappropriate or controversial character" is irrelevant to the question whether it deals with a matter of public concern. To determine whether speech is of public or private concern, this Court must independently examine the “ ‘content, form, and context, of the speech as revealed by the whole record. In considering content, form, and context, no factor is dispositive, and it is necessary to evaluate all aspects of the speech.

The “content” of Westboro’s signs plainly relates to public, rather than private, matters. The placards highlighted issues of public import—the political and moral conduct of the United States and its citizens, the fate of the Nation, homosexuality in the military, and scandals involving the Catholic clergy—and Westboro conveyed its views on those issues in a manner designed to reach as broad a public audience as possible. Even if a few of the signs were viewed as containing messages related to a particular individual, that would not change the fact that the dominant theme of Westboro’s demonstration spoke to broader public issues.

The “context” of the speech—its connection with Matthew Snyder’s funeral—cannot by itself transform the nature of Westboro’s speech. The signs reflected Westboro’s condemnation of much in modern society, and it cannot be argued that Westboro’s use of speech on public issues was in any way contrived to insulate a personal attack on Snyder from liability. Westboro had been actively engaged in speaking on the subjects addressed in its picketing long before it became aware of Matthew Snyder, and there can be no serious claim that the picketing did not represent Westboro’s honestly held beliefs on public issues. Westboro may have chosen the picket location to increase publicity for its views, and its speech may have been particularly hurtful to Snyder. That does not mean that its speech should be afforded less than full First Amendment protection under the circumstances of this case.

That said, even protected speech is not equally permissible in all places and at all times. Westboro’s choice of where and when to conduct its picketing is not beyond the Government’s regulatory reach—it is subject to reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions. The facts here are quite different, however, both with respect to the activity being regulated and the means of restricting those activities, from the few limited situations where the Court has concluded that the location of targeted picketing can be properly regulated under provisions deemed content neutral.

The “special protection” afforded to what Westboro said, in the whole context of how and where it chose to say it, cannot be overcome by a jury finding that the picketing was “outrageous” for purposes of applying the state law tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. That would pose too great a danger that the jury would punish Westboro for its views on matters of public concern. For all these reasons, the jury verdict imposing tort liability on Westboro for intentional infliction of emotional distress must be set aside.


I would at least reccomend that you read the Syllabus, but I believe I have accurately summarized it above. Now, let the new discussion begin!
rfenst
15 years ago

The 30 best anti WBC protest signs.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-3o-best-anti-westboro-baptist-church-protest-s 


I'm proud to live in the only city in the country that passed an ordinance specifically outlawing these pricks. It was, of course, shot down but it is also local lore that Phelps was informed in a way that made him listen that he would do well to stay out of St. Joseph Missouri. He hasn't been back although he's threatened to. I live less than75 miles from Topeka and I've considered going down there to check it out but have decided to keep my distance. He's gonna piss off the wrong person one of these days. This is also the same area of the country that famously shot and killed a local bully about 30 years ago. The dude was gunned down in the street in broad daylight on Main street...and not a soul saw it happen. Even though he was hit (I think) 17 times.

JadeRose wrote:




I just heard on PBS News Hour that 42 or 43 states have enacted laws to try to prevent this.
Gene363
15 years ago
On the bright side, the outrageous drivel from this so called church has galvanized many people into a force that has stymied and ridiculed the bass turds.[horse]

Like the Blues Brothers, "I hate Illinois Nazis!" they should stay off the streets.




JadeRose
15 years ago

I just heard on PBS News Hour that 42 or 43 states have enacted laws to try to prevent this.

rfenst wrote:




True, Robert, but St. Joseph SPECIFICALLY simply banned this particular group. It could never work, of course, but these lovable rednecks just figured "to hell with it" and made the WBC illegal in St Joseph. LOL
rfenst
15 years ago

On the bright side, the outrageous drivel from this so called church has galvanized many people into a force that has stymied and ridiculed the bass turds.[horse]

Like the Blues Brothers, "I hate Illinois Nazis!" they should stay off the streets.



Gene363 wrote:




While calling someone a Nazi usually ends the rational discussion, I definitely see parallels between how Westboro and neo-Nazis (and the KKK) protest and parade.
stogiemonger
15 years ago
It may not be legal to send some local boys and goils out to give them an old fashioned azz whoopin' every time this group shows up to protest a servicemans funeral, but, I'd volunteer if they came anywhere near My town.
stogiemonger
15 years ago
^Having said that, I think the court made the correct decision.
Gene363
15 years ago

While calling someone a Nazi usually ends the rational discussion, I definitely see parallels between how Westboro and neo-Nazis (and the KKK) protest and parade.

rfenst wrote:




I just cannot get over anyone wanting to disturb a funeral. Anyone with half a brain would know the Mother of the dead that hero never wanted her son to be in harms way to begin with. It's what a Mother does. These protesters don't give a crap about religion, they are just attention whores. As such, they deserve what they get. Like my Father told me many times, "You can say anything you like as long as you can take the consequences."

jojoc
15 years ago

It may not be legal to send some local boys and goils out to give them an old fashioned azz whoopin' every time this group shows up to protest a servicemans funeral, but, I'd volunteer if they came anywhere near My town.

stogiemonger wrote:




That would be a poor choice --- it is exactly the response they want. The reason they choose the locations they do is they hope someone will cross the line and do something "stupid". The result: 1. lots of free publicity 2. they sue the person and attempt to get civil damages and a means to further finance their "Cause".

rfenst
15 years ago


I just cannot get over anyone wanting to disturb a funeral. Anyone with half a brain would know the Mother of the dead that hero never wanted her son to be in harms way to begin with. It's what a Mother does. These protesters don't give a crap about religion, they are just attention whores. As such, they deserve what they get. Like my Father told me many times, "You can say anything you like as long as you can take the consequences."

Gene363 wrote:




Please don't mistake that my comment implies I support Westboro or approve what it does. There is just a legal commonality in how Westboro and the others have to lawfully protest.
Gene363
15 years ago

Please don't mistake that my comment implies I support Westboro or approve what it does. There is just a legal commonality in how Westboro and the others have to lawfully protest.

rfenst wrote:



Not even for a second and I am sorry if my reply implied that. [blush]

The decision was eight to one. I don't disagree with the decision, but I am very sympathetic to the dissenting opinion. I do not believe anyone should be forced to hear or view a protest. It's been that way for years in front of abortion clinics.

The law is the law, humanity and consideration for the feelings of others is an entirely different matter.

JadeRose
15 years ago


I just cannot get over anyone wanting to disturb a funeral. Anyone with half a brain would know the Mother of the dead that hero never wanted her son to be in harms way to begin with. It's what a Mother does. These protesters don't give a crap about religion, they are just attention whores. As such, they deserve what they get. Like my Father told me many times, "You can say anything you like as long as you can take the consequences."

Gene363 wrote:





Gene,

I couldn't agree with you more. What these people do is beyond my comprehension and it sickens me further to watch them do it with seeming impunity. I do, however, have faith that they will get what they deserve eventually. If not in this life that certainly in the next. I can't imagine that this doesn't royally piss God off and he will give Fred Phelps and his ilk some special attention upon their demise. As far as the Supreme court is concerned..it was the right decision. No where does it say that we have the right to be free of outrage or to not be offended. Freedom means freedom. As someone above me said......"Freedom can be messy"
rfenst
15 years ago

The decision was eight to one. I don't disagree with the decision, but I am very sympathetic to the dissenting opinion. I do not believe anyone should be forced to hear or view a protest. It's been that way for years in front of abortion clinics.

The law is the law, humanity and consideration for the feelings of others is an entirely different matter.

Gene363 wrote:




PBS News Hour's constitutional analyst, who was in the SCOTUS Gallery when the decision was announced and read/explained, said that the Chief Justice went to great lengths to express his feelings for the family and just how wrong he or they felt Westboro's protests are. Her observation was that he was definitely upset. Apparently, the explained analysis was so intricate that she freedom of Speech under the First Amendment.

If you happened to read the Syllabus or the Opinion, how many hours and drafts of work-in-progress drafts were spent and recirculated. Remember, 7 of the 9 joined in the opinion; one concurred and one dissented. Those 7 were in complete agreement with every word, sentence and paragraph in the Opinion- other wise they would have written their own Concurrence. That is why I always explain how "academic" and "artificial" the SCOTUS truly is. Nine great minds with very differing views, politics and styles, who belong to one of the worlds most exclusive clubs. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that the case took 500+ man hours.
DrMaddVibe
15 years ago
Sadly, you want there to be exceptions to Free Speech but there are none.

I think this "organization" (it's not a church!) is despicable. Anyone that would do this isn't doing what the Bible commands a believer to do.

I don't like the things they say and do but I defended their right to say and do them so we could all be free. That's the part about being an American that I love.

Common Sense is thrown out the window.[whip]
tailgater
15 years ago

Sadly, you want there to be exceptions to Free Speech but there are none.

I think this "organization" (it's not a church!) is despicable. Anyone that would do this isn't doing what the Bible commands a believer to do.

I don't like the things they say and do but I defended their right to say and do them so we could all be free. That's the part about being an American that I love.

Common Sense is thrown out the window.[whip]

DrMaddVibe wrote:



DMV,
First, everyone agrees that what they say and do is heinous.
But I think we also agree that they have the right to say it, via our free speech that we hold proudly.

The issue I have, and I think most of us concur, is the timing and the place.
They're not marching on Pennsylvania Avenue in mid July.
They're taunting funeral mourners.

The KKK can gather "peacefully" in their home towns.
They can NOT march downtown Harlem.

Nazi sympathizers can meet twice weekly at the library if they want.
But they would never be allowed to set up a tent outside a temple.

What they say is aweful.
Where they do it is illegal, and could easily be stated as such by the courts without the fear of infringing upon their constitutional rights to free speech.

tailgater
15 years ago



...The “context” of the speech—its connection with Matthew Snyder’s funeral—cannot by itself transform the nature of Westboro’s speech. The signs reflected Westboro’s condemnation of much in modern society, and it cannot be argued that Westboro’s use of speech on public issues was in any way contrived to insulate a personal attack on Snyder from liability. Westboro had been actively engaged in speaking on the subjects addressed in its picketing long before it became aware of Matthew Snyder, and there can be no serious claim that the picketing did not represent Westboro’s honestly held beliefs on public issues. Westboro may have chosen the picket location to increase publicity for its views, and its speech may have been particularly hurtful to Snyder. That does not mean that its speech should be afforded less than full First Amendment protection under the circumstances of this case.

That said, even protected speech is not equally permissible in all places and at all times. Westboro’s choice of where and when to conduct its picketing is not beyond the Government’s regulatory reach—it is subject to reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions. The facts here are quite different, however, both with respect to the activity being regulated and the means of restricting those activities, from the few limited situations where the Court has concluded that the location of targeted picketing can be properly regulated under provisions deemed content neutral.

The “special protection” afforded to what Westboro said, in the whole context of how and where it chose to say it, cannot be overcome by a jury finding that the picketing was “outrageous” for purposes of applying the state law tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. That would pose too great a danger that the jury would punish Westboro for its views on matters of public concern. For all these reasons, the jury verdict imposing tort liability on Westboro for intentional infliction of emotional distress must be set aside. [/color]


rfenst wrote:



These last three paragraphs is where I think the courts went wrong.
The timing and place of their hateful assault has EVERYTHING to do with Snyder.
It's simple to prove that they would not be at that place, at that time, were it not for his funeral.

There is no need for the courts to ****-foot around this in fear of toppling the applecart known as free speech.
That would be like saying a sniper had no more intent then a simple guy firing into an empty field with a rifle.
The two are COMPLETELY seperate.
DrafterX
15 years ago

It may not be legal to send some local boys and goils out to give them an old fashioned azz whoopin' every time this group shows up to protest a servicemans funeral, but, I'd volunteer if they came anywhere near My town.

stogiemonger wrote:




not as easy as it sounds... they hide behind the local law enforcement like a little kid on his front porch.... I don't think you could get close enough if you really tried.. and besides, they send women and children to these protests...

here is my encounter with them..
http://www.cigarbid.com/FORUM/c/posts/599501/Might-get-ugly-around-here-this-weekend-Westboro- 
teedubbya
15 years ago
I am in Topeka right now. When I drive by their compound later this afternoon I will express all of your love to them verbally and with a nice physical gesture. Any (legal) ideas.
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