I would like to apologize publicly for calling Rick a bigot in another thread on this forum. I could have argued with him about my opinions without resorting to name-calling. But, as a human, I fell short of doing that.

I thought that I was defending my faith, and still do defend the faith that the majority of Cathlolics understand (despite some of the misnomers stated by others).

I don't agree with things that you write sometimes Rick, but I apologize for what I wrote about you and I ask that you forgive me.

i forgave you after i posted. you are a mensch for posting this.

Thanks for your reply and for expanding my vocabulary (that's a new word on me).

Finch- Thank you for your example of humility. I find honor in your act.

HUMILITY- a prominent Christian grace (Rom. 12:3; 15:17, 18; 1 Cor. 3:5-7; 2 Cor. 3:5; Phil. 4:11-13). It is a state of mind well pleasing to God (1 Pet. 3:4); it preserves the soul in tranquillity (Ps. 69:32, 33), and makes us patient under trials (Job 1:22). Christ has set us an example of humility (Phil. 2:6-8). We should be led thereto by a remembrance of our sins (Lam. 3:39), and by the thought that it is the way to honour (Prov. 16:18), and that the greatest promises are made to the humble (Ps. 147:6; Isa. 57:15; 66:2; 1 Pet. 5:5). It is a "great paradox in Christianity that it makes humility the avenue to glory."

Humility can be a trait of any good person regardless of his or her beliefs. I tend to get irked when people put the label of Christian to a good trait or act as if to claim ownership. I frequently hear terms used like "Christian humility; Christian patience; Christian values; Christian charity" to name only a few.

My neighbor told me that our daughter's 5th grade teacher was a good teacher because he was Christian. (She frequently labeled people as good if they were "Christian".) I said " I am glad to hear that....I certainly wouldn't want my daughter corrupted by a Buddhist or Muslim." (Tongue in cheek).

She stared at me for a moment and I said "My last name is Golden. I was raised Jewish. Does that disqualify me from being able to be 'good'?". She understood my meaning and has been more careful of her choice of words.

I understand her excitement at her knowing and worshipping her Lord. However, I have always been taught not to proselytize my beliefs. That includes tossing my belief system into everyday conversation. That is unless it is the subject or I am in Synagogue.

Almost every religion, every belief, every system of worshipping has its focus on being and doing good to one's self and to others. To doing right by G-d and by following the teachings of some very wise people. There is no need to take specified ownership of goodness.

Every religion has a common foundation of a sole primary entity which created everything, gave man and woman breath. Put the sun in the sky and critters on the ground, in the air and under water. Geography, language, climate and social development is what created secularism. Whether G-d is called Allah, Jehova, Buddah, Mother, Father, Lord (etc.) is irrelevant.

We are all the same in our basic being. Some are good, some are bad. Some live their lives dedicated to worship. Others live to live life and be happy with what they believe. Some people have evil in their heart and thus, do evil things such as child abuse and neglect.

I don't care to convert anyone to my beliefs. I will gladly share my religion if asked. My point and opinion is please don't label "Good" and "Christian" as being the same thing. No mortal being owns "good" and "goodness".

My wife, whom is Catholic, offerred a solution to the problems facing the church today. The Vatican should allow priests to marry. Simple...may not fix 100% of the problem, but it would significantly reduce the occurance.

(Sorry...I did it again. Got on the soapbox and wore out my welcome. All of this is just my opinion. Not necessarily a reflection on Judaism or any other particular belief. Just me babbling, but hopefully making a point).

"The Vatican should allow priests to marry. Simple...may not fix 100% of the problem, but it would significantly reduce the occurance."

If I understand what you are claiming, then married Men cannot ever become pedophiles or engage in pedophilia? I think that notion is a bit far fetched and unproven. After all, how many baseball coaches, scout masters and school teachers (all married) have turned out to be child molesters? You will find more of them than Catholic Priests.

I think the general opinion of those who don't understand or want to understand the Catholic faith is that marriage equals unlimited sex and a natural control over one's concupiscence. And yet, Catholics believe that marriage is a Sacrament instituted by GOD and that sex is a gift that still requires a certain level of chastity within one's station in life.

Marriage requires faith in your partner to remain true and to share in the gift of sex with only your partner. As for priests, they have chosen to become priests knowing that they are "married" to the Church instituted by Christ and that their station in life also requires a certain degree of chastity (celibacy).

No one forces these men to be celibate, because no one forced them to become priests. Therefore, a priest can give his entire life and energies over to his parish withour neglecting his own flesh and blood. Many people don't realize that a much of a priest's day is taken up in activities that extend to almost 16 hours. A great deal of time is spent alone in prayer to prepare for Mass. And, there are those trips to the hospital at all hours to care for the sick and dying. What women would want to be neglected or have her children neglected for that long? The role of a Father in married life requires so much more than what a Catholic priest can give, and these men (the good priests) understand this.

They chose to give their life to Christ and those that have failed miserably by molesting children have (in my opinion) given up the right to be called priest.

Married priests aren't the answer. The answer is threefold in my opinion:

-Tighter screening processes at the seminary level to weed out men with pedophile tendencies.

-Removal of priests from the priesthood (defrocking) and prosecution in the cases of those who are found guilty of these crimes.

-Disciplinary actions against any supervisory personnel who "cover up" molestation charges.

Did you here the one about the priest and the alter boy?

Obviously Ffinch, there is no good answer. You are correct that prosecution and accountability are an answer. As well as allowing priests to have wives. Understand, allowing priests to be married doesn't solve the pedophile problem in its entirety. But it puts an extra measure of accountability into the priest's mindset and allows him to have a sexual relationship which is condoned by the Church. It also
If you knew anything about crime, criminal behaviour, and yes, criminal profiles: a vast majority of pedophiles are single,older,solitary,males. Hmmm...put the equation together. The numbers start to decline as you take away each of those components.

It doesn't fix the Catholic Church's problems entirely but it will reduce the occurrence. I am not Catholic, but I have probably spent more time in Catholic Church than Synagogue. My kids went to Catholic school, my wife is Catholic we are involved with a lot of activities and charities. And I happen to live in an area where, out of the 15 Catholoic Churches here, 5 have had priests indicted. That's 33% of the parishes in this area. That is a pretty high number. I think I would like to see a quick solution to the problem since it hits close to home.

Rayder writes: "If you knew anything about crime, criminal behaviour, and yes, criminal profiles: a vast majority of pedophiles are single, older, solitary,males. Hmmm...put the equation together."

It might interest you to know that I've spent my entire adult career in law enforcement dealing with all types of criminal behavior. I'm well aware of the profiles of almost every type of criminal. I'm also smart enough and had enough experience on the streets and in the prisons not to "pigeon hole" people so quickly. Humans are a very rare "animal" capable of almost anything.

Profiling isn't an exact science, it is a "place to start" for investigators. However, using your paradigm, almost every single or widowed adult male between the ages of 38 and 60 is suspect. And that might even inlcude yourself or others on these forums.

Let's be real here and begin looking at the motivations behind certain people and their quick criticism of the entire Catholic Church. There is a certain segment in our society that absolutely hates the Catholic Church and perhaps organized religion as well. Some here have made that very obvious at the onset and have been very quiet since then. Making a quick "drive-by" slander or poke at the Church is real easy. Having a discussion about differences isn't, as demonstrated by my own lack of composure.

I think I made my opinion very clear with regards to the guilty priests. I'm not defending their behavior in the least but, I'm not willing to stereotype, profile or pigeonhole people too quickly either.

Now for the sake of peace, allow me ask you a cigar related question.... What was the most recent cigar that you've enjoyed?

Me? I just finished a nice C.A.O. Corona Gorda, quite delicious.

Peace to you Rayder....

I'll need two seperate responses. First, to Rayder regarding the use of Good=Christian.
Obviously, not all Christians are good, and not all good people are Christians. But oftentimes an expression uses words that, when taken literally, may offend or bother some.
Don't take it the wrong way.
Just as the term "godless people" implies a lawless society with rampant crimes, we all realize that many good, honest people have no religious beliefs.

As for priests marrying....
There are certainly better ways to prevent perversion than by attempting to select non-molesters simply by virtue of marital status.
But the idea is not without some merit, simply because we are not (usually) talking about pedophilia when we speak of the offending Catholic priests.
The molestation, in fact, is more consistent with homosexuality, since most of the cases involved young male teens and pre-teens.
Pedophilia, a disease known to be uncurable, is typically gender neutral and performed on young children.
These monsters/priests preyed on younger teens of the same sex. Usually no physical force was required.
They deserve to die slowly for what they did. But not because they have a disease (pedophilia), rather becasue they used their position of trust to persuade unsuspecting youths into compromising positions.
Nobody calls it homosexuality because they're afraid to be labeled as homophobes. But to suggest that these priests are indeed gay is not a condemnation of all gays. Just the ones who prey on our youth.

tailgator

i totally agree with you on both posts.

Priests in fact did marry until the 1500. Seems certain families had Catholic dynasties. So celibacy was introduced for what were claimed to be altruistic reasons. The Church was trying to prevent too great a concentration of power in any one group. Many families then began putting their misfits into seminaries. They figured they might as well get SOME contribution from them. Hell, let 'em marry. Let women be priests. Why not?

Hmmm Ffinch....Just finished a Perdomo Fresh Rolled Wheel. Needs some more humi time.

Curious what capacity you are in Law Enforcement. Not to compare experience. If you are with a large Dept. contact your special crimes unit for their statistics. Spooky consistancy.

I would like to end this as well, but I have had extensive education in this field. I have done my homework. I agree, profiling is a good primary investigatory tool but does have its flaws, as the snipers in the DC area showed us, but they also showed us a rare diversion from a pattern established over a hundred years.

Anyone with more than 10 or so years of contacting criminals knows that profiling has a tendency to be right way more often than wrong. The only problem is, it isn't politically correct to profile. We have to accept that anyone has an equal chance of committing a crime. yeah right.

For your reading pleasure:
U.S. Department of Justice
Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Child Victimizers: Violent Offender and Their
Victims--Executive Summary
March 1996, NCJ-158625
Full text with tables available from:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Clearinghouse
800-732-3277

Excerpt:

Long Term and Persistent Pattern of Behavior
1.)Sexual Abuse in Background
2.) Limited sexual contact as a teenager
3.)Premature Separation from Military
4.)Frequent unexpected moves (from residence to residence and job to job)
5.)Prior related Arrests
6.)Multiple victims
7.)Over 25, single,never married. (By itself, this indicator menas nothing. It has significance only when combined with several other indicators. Because they have a sexual preference for children,pedophiles usually have some degree of difficulty in performing sexually with adults. Therefore they typically do not marry...
8.)Lives alone or with parents
9.)Limited dating relationships
10.)Marries with "special" relationship with spouse. Either a strong domineering spouse or a weak,child like spouse.

It is part of an extensive research file. I am aware I am dragging this on but I just don't want to leave off this subject coming off as a half cocked opinionated dufus. There are a lot of hard facts and patterns behind my opinions posted here.

I feel strongly about this subject. I feel a slow painful death awaits those who abuse our children. Should one of my kids fall victim to one of these perverts,there will be no trial if I get there first.

Sorry to drag it on Ffinch but I back my opinion. I only cited one source, there are hundreds and all of them say essentailly the same thing.

By the way ...I'm done. Peace to you as well brother. I'll light up a nice AVO tomorrow before football.

"Curious what capacity you are in Law Enforcement."

I Spent 10 years in the military, worked 3 years in the the Brig, also was a Deputy for Lake County Illinois.

Currently working for the Justice Dept. and hold qualifications as an instructor in self defense, tactical measures for riot control and am a member of a Hostage Negotiation team serving as as the tactical laison.

I've worked in correctional settings in the cell house and living units as well as in the investigations office profiling, cataloging and gathering intelligence on prison gangs. Securing crime scenes and gathering evidence.

I certainly don't know it all, not even close. As you know, this "job" is ever changing and requires constant learning and and self-evaluation. As they say, "if you stop learning, your dead".

Peace be with you Rayder, stay safe.

questions

did pedophiles become priests hoping the they would be cured of their needs?

did pedophiles become priests because they were certain they would not be punished by the church for their actions and law enforcement would not be brought into the picture?

since most day-care centers are liscensed and presumably the owners are screened, does the church have a higher percentage of pedophiles then other occupations, or callings.

why did g-d make pedophiles?

Read above.
It's not pedophilia (generally). It's homosexuality.
And god did not make pedophiles. Weak, twisted humans did.
But it's the liberal democrats who defend them.
(See an earlier post on the ACLU and NAMBLA to support that statement.)