Topic 1- Should Algebra be required?

For the record, I totally agree Algebra should be taught to all, but I disagree that it is necessary to be a logical and reasonable citizen of the world, which is the root of Victor89's argument. My challenge to Victor89 was intended to convince me that without taking an algebra class, a typical person's life would suffer or adversely affect others. I was looking for something that could apply generally, like buying a home or driving a car, or voting. Maybe there is a good example I cannot think of and I thought Victor89 or anyone could enlighten me.

bgz, you provided a programming example using algebra, which does not fit my intended criterion for an example as described above. My argument for programming was intended to focus on a better way to learn "ordered thought" and logic. While programming and algebraic concepts undoubtedly overlap, I do not believe you need to pass an algebra class to learn the basics of programming. I could easily structure a semester's worth of intro to programming to illustrate ordered thought and logic without algebra. Our pictures would just need to be resized in Microsoft Paint : )

Topic 2-Are standardized tests a good method?

tailgater, there are obvious hurdles to overcome in implementing a standardized test. And some will undoubtedly be greedy and time will undoubtedly need to be spent preparing. We need to realize there will never be a perfect system to teach millions of people, but what alternative is there to objectively quantify a large group of student's progress? You wrote, "Good students still fared well, but their studies were hindered by the school days lost to preparing for the test." How is hindered quantified? The fact that standardized tests are still around and one of the main criteria for acceptance to college proves they are the most useful tool we have quantify the state of our education system.

Lastly, how could the problems have been avoided if the school board learned Algebra? I would say it could have been avoided if the school board could predict the future.

Hey, I like this new guy.

Perhaps I phrased the issue I have incorrectly. My initial point was that the basic algebraic constructs are at the root of many elementary logic constructs. This was not to imply that we teach students algebra and that will ensure they understand logic. What that meant to me is that if a student is having a fundamental block in understanding these algebraic concepts, odds are that they are going to have an issue with logical constructs.

I don't know the solution. I am not sure (or even hopeful) that teaching students algebra is going to help them understand logic concepts. But I can guarantee that NOT pushing students to try to learn algebra, even if it's difficult for them isn't going to help.

I've said it before in other threads, I have a deep suspicion of anyone who doesn't understand math up to and including basic algebra.

My goal in life has never been to prevent other people from suffering. In so much as an understanding of logic would cause someone to make better decisions (no, I don't think people who understand logic always make good decisions, but given that the construct of logic is intended to improve a person's understanding of facts in order to both use these facts and convey them to others, we can expect some modicum of improved decision-making) then if someone cannot or is unwilling to get their head around basic logical constructs, they will make poor decisions. This can range from believing any ridiculous advertisement pushed at them (from politicians to anti-smokeless tobacco). There are many ways in which bad decision making on their part can have a negative impact on my life.

no shit?

:)

Hey, at least I'm practical about the whole matter. 🙂

I had this thread on the brain when a guy came in for an interview today for a non-programming position but he did say he had a strong desire to be a programmer.

I was dragged in to the conference room because of this to ask him some questions...

After drilling him on what he already knows about programming and development (which wasn't much)... it went a little like this:

Me: So how's your math skills?

Him: I believe my math skills are excellent!

Me: So how far did you go in math in college?

Him: All the way to Calculus.

Me: Really, you have a communications degree and Calculus was a requirement?

Him: Yes.

Me: So how many calc classes did you take?

Him: 1 or 2 if I remember right.

Me: How did you do in trig?

Him: I don't remember taking trig.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I just love when people lie to me in interviews.

You obviously failed algebra.

Actually I was at the top of my class. I even smoked a Gurk Vulcan today and it helps me see how illogical you are. Gotta go look at my ears now.

No self respecting vulcan would say "maybe we only know about things when we find out about them".

Not even Captain Kirk would say that.

Now, Captain Obvious?

Yes.

He would definitely say things like that.

Had I had the discipline, tutoring, and desire to learn it back then I would probably be a billionaire by now. There's no excuse for not teaching Mathematics. The answers are either right or wrong and there is no gray area. The principles of Mathematics are absolute. Shifting to a culture without Math would be a watering down of philosophical values and a bold statement saying we no longer accept truth to be constant.

You're right.

Look at me: I DID learn it back then and now I'm working on my second Billion.

I gave up on the first...

Uh...um...hehehehuh...uh...I'm pretty sure they have tutors.

yes and no.

in my town, definitely. Caren worked in the local public schools for 35 years and it was a top shelf system until about 12 years ago, then it bottomed out and is very slowly clawing it's way back, yet still below average. She always felt that the school budget was top heavy in administrative salaries and positions existing that were overlapping in some cases and ineffective in others.

But a lot of the quality drop has to do with a sudden population shift, English not spoken at home, little parental support due to working 2 and 3 jobs, college not commonly considered the obvious next step, tax collections losing ground as property value dropped, top students and athletes being recruited by private/Catholic schools,,,this stuff weighs heavily on a town with a dropping median income yet with what appears to be a high amount of money spent per pupil...but

...compared to wealthier surrounding towns where English is the first language in 98.2% of homes, our high school has something like 42 languages spoken at home, larger chunks of available budget money goes toward mandated special ed, extra time and money goes to discipline (less parental oversight at home)...phew! So a higher percentage of the cost per pupil actually goes toward educating each student individually in the wealthier towns that continue to perform well despite also having to "teach to the test". For our town, it is a crushing weight.

I hear ya, my friend, but the money is still there.

Look at the more affluent towns, and their schools likely have more and better programs/sports/etc.

Their per-pupil cost for the actual education may not be as different as you think, and much of that goes directly to higher teacher salaries anyhow.

When I say the money is there, I look no further than Sturgis Charter school. It's tops in the state and spends less per student. No fluff, no mess.

It's an extreme, but the sweet spot lies in the middle. Get rid of the waste and spend the money where it belongs to help the actual education.

the "yes" part of agreeing with you, and I can only speak for Randolph, is what Caren says about top heavy salaries and unnecessary administrative hiring. It causes us to lose our shot at recruiting more excellent teachers, we can not compete with the likes of Westwood, Sharon etc for their services.

the gray area for us is something the wealthier towns barely have to fund at all.

The common expense areas relate to the mandates that take away from good old teaching.

We spend about the same per pupil, but that is a misleading average per pupil. I do agree, the money is there, but not all of it is wasted by stupidity, a lot relates to our population too...not to mention th eamount we have to kick in for Blue Hills Regional Vocational!

We know tons of teachers, they'd like to teach the way Gene correctly believes would be better...but i am like a idiot, as you well know.

C'mon Frank, you were one of the sharpest minds I knew out in Iowa back when. I don't think I could have done that manual coefficient of correlation calculation in a timely manner without your help.