mhpd,

If you won millions in the lottery, would you hang up your duty belt and turn in your badge? Would you refuse the winnings and live on in relative oscurity serving your community, patrolling hostile streets? I know this is an unrealistic scenario, but what Tillman did was give up the millions, fame, and chose to serve. You and I would be hard pressed to make that decision.

Friendly fire isn't. Yes, it happens. That doesn't mean he was fragged by his subordinates. If you review your initial post, you make it sound that way. From a man that in the profession of service to the public, that is a sad outlook for you to have.

All our servicemen and women are heroes. Our fallen brothers and sisters in arms paid the ultimate price for their beliefs. I will NOT dishonor them. They paid in blood for the rights and privledges you and I excercise. How soon we forget this makes me lower my head in shame.

Remember, respect is earned, not doled out upon demand. Lead by example, and I'll follow.

Your example, I'll not follow.

R/S
E4A

OK Russ let me simplify....
1) I disagree the friendly fire diminishes Tillman's sacrifice.
2) If mhpd is trying to make that point then I disagree with him too. (which amazing as it seems means I agree with you guys on this one)
3) I do agree with mhpd that you guys (tne BOTL neo-cons and others) are way over-reacting here. The atmosphere of vicious character assasination in reaction to disagreements is highly dysfunctional, both on this board and in the Bush administration.

Russell AKA Hog... I've always enjoyed your passion and your sense of humor..... Even though we disagree on a lot of things....

But in general the piling on mhpd is a bit extreme.

On another subject, I wonder when they are going to come out with an honest presidential poll on who the troops in Iraq and Afganistan are voting for in November. (minor thread jack sorry... perhaps a new thread)

DB

Hmm
I wanted to compliment CW on his post.... I'm thinking some of the samw thoughts...

This is really a minor story....One guy one revision to the facts... Let's move on (.org)

Um, DB? I'm called a "nuvo-con" more often than anyone else by you I believe? Was my posting acerbic? Disrespectful? Vitriolic? Iconoclastic? Insensitive? Off base? Extreme?

The remark about being a hero because my daughter went to prom with a senior. Hey, that was a joke, trying just to wink and laugh with those who have daughters and worry there a**es off over the girls.

Crazy vibes at this place.

Would I give it all up and flyfish in Wyoming for the rest of my life? Not sure, actually. Probably, but it'd naw at me for the rest of my life, known that my brothers and sisters were doing my job for me. That'd take some soul searching. No doubt.

Exactly what Robby said.. my post was simple.. (all of them)breaking down the fine threads depicting the difference between a "Prom" and an actual Combat situation where one would not have time to think.. and I took it a bit further into the subject by trying to impose or leave you with a graphic (visual if you may) of the difference.. one difference being "Combat Situation" live rounds being exchanged air thick with Lead while one ducks and dives for cover and at the same time trying to maintain and return fire to help cover their buddy's... "Prom" one would not necessarily have to put themselves in Grave Danger as lets say (Parents, Adult supervision) as long as they do not try and turn the back seat of the car into a heated combat scenario, or even possibly a hotel/motel room if one could go to such costs.. Thus and even reducing the risk of only one Gun going off as appose to many all at once... and then to even imagine in their own accord that this such action is initself the same situation and merit it a greater Valor on such a weekend as the celebration for rememberance to all of the fallen throughout Centuries... this in itself is more disrepectfull passed the word Cruide, and totally downright un imaginable but only to one person... so I do not think there has been anything written in anyone's post that could top how low Mr. mhpd had stooped to try and discredit not only a Veteran but All Veterans and I do happen to be one...So read my post reply's as you may.. but I will carry my apologies in my boot for a long time and eventually walk them off...

Hog

Exactly what Robby said.. my post was simple.. (all of them)breaking down the fine threads depicting the difference between a "Prom" and an actual Combat situation where one would not have time to think.. and I took it a bit further into the subject by trying to impose or leave you with a graphic (visual if you may) of the difference.. one difference being "Combat Situation" live rounds being exchanged air thick with Lead while one ducks and dives for cover and at the same time trying to maintain and return fire to help cover their buddy's... "Prom" one would not necessarily have to put themselves in Grave Danger as lets say (Parents, Adult supervision) as long as they do not try and turn the back seat of the car into a heated combat scenario, or even possibly a hotel/motel room if one could go to such costs.. Thus and even reducing the risk of only one Gun going off as appose to many all at once... and then to even imagine in their own accord that this such action is initself the same situation and merit it a greater Valor on such a weekend as the celebration for rememberance to all of the fallen throughout Centuries... this in itself is more disrepectfull passed the word Cruide, and totally downright un imaginable but only to one person... so I do not think there has been anything written in anyone's post that could top how low Mr. mhpd had stooped to try and discredit not only a Veteran but All Veterans and I do happen to be one...So read my post reply's as you may.. but I will carry my apologies in my boot for a long time and eventually walk them off...

Hog

Chit.........

usahog, that made almost no sense. I think you missed the humor (not surprisingly, you don't seem to have a sense of humor...only viciousness) in my remark about prom. It was a joke.

Sounds like you were a teenage father. I'd bet the house. Sounds like you carry that pain with you. Therapy would be a good option.

usahog and mhpd

you guys are pushing each other too hard.

it's all my fault for starting **** here.

or blame it on the basanova.

disagree, please, argue, please, attack each other personally, no, no, no.

I would really like a clarification mhpd, since you say you're a cop too. Recently two local police officers died on duty, a Motor Officer was hit and killed on duty and another officer was hit and killed while responding to a call.

So now, since their deaths were accidental are they not community 'heroes' for doing (and dying for) their job? As one cop to another I hope you answer one way, I'd be awfully ashamed if it were the other way (of course you're totally open to your own opinion).

I'm only wondering what your requirements are. To me anyway ALL on duty police, firefighter and military deaths are equally tragic. I also feel all are heroes for doing a dangerous job to benefit either their community or country, whether their death on duty was an accident or not.

Is it possible to you that people MIGHT be considered heroes for doing a dangerous job that the majority would want no part of? No matter HOW they ended up dying?

Just wondering.

So mhpd in what branch of service did you serve? Inquiring minds want to know. JonR

All cops (not corrupt, who don't shame the badge) who die itlod are heroes. Not sure that goes for soldiers, though, who die for different kinds of causes. Not heroes necessarily, but they deserve respect.

Tillman gets too much hero worship and that disrespects other soldiers.

JohnR, well, man, I did not join the military. Went to j.c., then to a four-year, got my cj degree, joined the force. I didn't know you had to be a military man to comment on our culture and politics. Do you think we have to be veterans to comment? Please answer that question DIRECTLY.

mhpd, perhaps you were simply misunderstood. But clearly, you can accept that some could take umbrage to such comments. I did not serve. My brother did, my father did, and others in my family. I am very thankful for all who did choose to server, or those who were drafted. It would be best to tread lightly on such incendiary issues. There are those here who did serve, who lost friends, who put their own lives on the line. And I think they interpreted your comments right or wrong as a direct kick in the nads to them, their fallen brothers, and all those who serve today. I am hopeful that it was a misunderstanding. I for one think the hero comments were totally justified in Tillman’s case. And the reference to you winning the lottery and continuing to put your life on the line every day was very relevant. I don’t know how many people would give up what he (Tillman) gave up, not counting his life for our freedom. That does not diminish the sacrifice of the others who have fallen in combat, but it puts a punctuation point on his sacrifice. He didn’t have to do it, he chose in a BIG way to do it. Others who have volunteered may have done so partially for reasons of service, partially for reasons of career, partially for reasons of building themselves from children to men, for whatever reason, how many of them would have walked away from what Tillman did at his age? Not many… I believe this is what calls special attention to this man. He was special. And additionally, he did not want fame for his sacrifice. He specifically turned down interviews, told people to get out of his face, and that’s not what he was there for. He was there for a reason, to protect me, to protect you, to protect “America” and our freedoms. He felt strongly about it. Surely can understand the kind of emotion your post could evoke. I’ve made mistakes, we all have. Please accept this as a growth opportunity and learn from it.

mhpd,

"All cops (not corrupt, who don't shame the badge) who die itlod are heroes. Not sure that goes for soldiers, though, who die for different kinds of causes. Not heroes necessarily, but they deserve respect."

This is pretty sad. Cops are no more heroes than military personnel. Realize it or not, you're all bretheren. You all protect us as a society. Our military men and women serve in combat zones abroad, fight for life and liberty and basically keep the wolves away from our doors. Why? So that law enforcement is enough within our borders. Look at all the nations that have their military policing the populace. To say that a law enforcement officer is a hero, but a dead warrior is not, well, it's all BS.

I respect your opinion, but I also think you'll never understand what most of us are saying. I don't know what it's like responding to a 911 call, but I do know what it's like engaging an enemy reinforced regiment. Bullets are blind. They don't care what they hit. I hope you'll never have to find out.

R/S
E4A

Why are you so bitter about Tillman? There can be more than one hero.

e4a,

Let me tell you how I see the difference. As a cop, I and my brothers and sisters uphold a law that is inherently good and just. Wouldn't do this if I didn't think the laws are good and just. I don't consider a cop who dies upholding segregation laws or slavery to be a hero. But we live in a time when our laws I and my br/sis uphold are the right ones.

Not true in a war. Afganistan and Iraq are not good and just wars. They are bringing us financial hard times and making us look bad on the world's stage. There was little justification for Afg, none for Iraq, in my view, so I don't see all as heroes just because they die. Now, if they're helping to save their bros and sis lives by risking there own, that is heroic to me. But just getting shot fighting a bad war doesn't make a person a hero. That's what I'm getting at.

Think about this difference between cops and soldiers. If I shoot a civilian, full investigation. Our soldiers have killed civilians by the thousands in Afganistan and Iraq, no investigation. The military won't even try to get an accurate count. (What are they hiding?) That's a real difference, which means we aren't the same. I can't strafe a building just cause I think there are bad guys inside. If I do, I go to prison.

So what you are saying mhpd is that you interpret which laws that you feel that you should enforce? I’m not talking about turning a blind eye to someone going 65 in a 55 zone. It sounds like you are the kind of guy that let someone murder someone if you thought that it was “justified”. I don't know where you live and work but I'm sure that your department’s internal investigation unit (or what ever your force may have) would love to get a hold of you. You come across like a vigilante not a cop.

I know that most of the policemen in my neck of the woods have to take an oath that says something to the effect of: "Policemen are bound to enforce and compel obedience to the laws of their state and to the ordinances of the cities and towns within their jurisdiction."

If you want to interpret the law, become a judge. If you want to make the laws, become a legislator.

mhpd,

This is where your logic is flawed. As members of the armed forces we swore an oath to support and defend the constitution (the LAW) of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. As enlisted members we also swore to obey the orders of the officers appointed over us and the officers swear to obey the orders of the President of the United States.

My oath of office didn't say I could pick and choose which orders I would obey. As long as the order is lawful, it must be obeyed. The men and women in uniform aren't allowed a vote on whether any war is justified. They are instruments of power to be wielded by politicians. This ain't no union job where you all can walk out if the pay or the duty sucks.

How much security would the US have if everyone in uniform was able to refuse the orders that are passed down? Everyone that chooses the military life is a hero in my mind because they swear that oath and in essence, put the control of their lives into the hands of elected officials. They provide the security for our nation during peacetime and conflict.

The biggest difference between the military and the civilian heroes (police, firemen, etc) is the commitment to serve and the oath of office. Military members can't just quit when they feel like it. Once they sign the contract and take the oath, they are committed for a defined period of time. The penalty for refusing an order or violating the military rules and regulations is often nonjudicial punishment or in severe cases a courts martial.

Ahhh, so it IS a political thing. Figures.