uncleb
21 years ago
Delta,

As I said before, I totally respect your right to your beliefs and opinions. I do not hate you. As a matter of fact, I respect you very much for the strong beliefs you hold, just as I respect USAHOG, EI, Charlie, Rickamaven, and countless others on these boards that are strong in their beliefs.

I consider myself a liberal in most of my values and beliefs. At one time I was pro-choice but have come to believe that, in our modern society, that there are enough options, education and outlets that abortion should no longer be considered a viable option to unwanted pregnancies, except in extreme circumstances (incest, imminent danger to the mother, etc). That being said, I have never and would never consider a woman that makes that choice to be a "murderer". Just my belief.

All this being said, the thing that most bothers me about your post(s) is the stereotypical way in which you lump all "liberals" together as such terrible people. We (my wife and I) do instill values in our children and teach them right and wrong and how they should treat everyone as well as themselves with respect. We do teach them that sex is something that takes place between 2 individuals that dearly love each other and is not something to be taken lightly. We do teach them that we believe that they should wait until they are married before they engage in love making. Instilling good values is not just a "conservative" trait. It is a good person trait. Perhaps what you meant to say is "I hate PEOPLE that....."

Yes there are people that fall into the "group" that you describe, but that by no means fits all liberals and it definitely does not describe me. These are just my thoughts.
18delta
  • 18delta
  • Herf-A-Holic Topic Starter
21 years ago
you are right.....i hate people who kill babies..........

i am sorry if i offended you by lumping all liberals into one category. i never said that instilling good values was solely a conservative trait though. i respect you for stating your views publically and also for taking time-as many people do not- to teach your children well.

i now have 2 categories

liberals i dislike a little
liberals i dislike alot

i am yanking the hell out of your chains

i like to play with ricky ricky though


SPANIARD..........SNAILER

[email protected]

bassdude
21 years ago
Some very interesting posts with the exception of Pmoreno. That is the type of liberal that gives you all a bad rap.

Uncleb wrote
----------------------------------------------------
I consider myself a liberal in most of my values and beliefs. At one time I was pro-choice but have come to believe that, in our modern society, that there are enough options, education and outlets that abortion should no longer be considered a viable option to unwanted pregnancies, except in extreme circumstances (incest, imminent danger to the mother, etc). That being said, I have never and would never consider a woman that makes that choice to be a "murderer". Just my belief.

Well said and I agree with all but the 2nd to last sentence.

I just started reading a book by PJ O'Rourke and he summed up what I always thought was the 'liberal' feeling on abortion/death penalty: "consider how much you'd have to hate free will to come up with a political platform that advocates killing unborn babies but not convicted murderers. A callous pragmatist might favor abortion and capital punishment. A devout Christian would sanction neither. But it takes years of therapy to arrive at the liberal point of view."

Folks life begins at conception. And with abortion you make the choice to end that life. Who knows what great accomplishments that person may have reached in their lifetime, another Einstein, a cure for cancer???
Cigarick
21 years ago
Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control, but...

Women should have the right to choose, but...

Taxpayers should not have to foot the bill, neither for the abortion, nor for raising their litter (you pick the definition).
bassdude
21 years ago
cigarick let me ask you this; you are dating a woman and are totally in love with her. She gets pregnant. You want the child she does not. You have no problem being a single parent even if this means it is the end of the relationship. Still her choice to abort?
bloody spaniard
21 years ago
Delta, I finally read the entire thread.
It was tough at times because of the run-on sentences... BUT

I am also pro-life AND
I know that you don't hate liberals. They rankle you a bit-- been there bro.

Someday, the "pro-choicers" will have to stand before God and explain that it's not the taking of a life because they know better than HE when life begins...

Having said that, liberals have also helped bring about higher standards of living and greater human rights. Things are not quite as white or black as you perceive.

blood

bloody spaniard
21 years ago
Bass, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

If a woman has a right to "choose" because she knows what's best for her body, and no law should supercede that--then why are there laws against suicide?

Cigarick
21 years ago
"She gets pregnant... Still her choice to abort?"

We're not married and she's the one who would carry the baby for nine months. Her body, her choice.
Cigarick
21 years ago
"...then why are there laws against suicide?"

There shouldn't be.
PMoreno349
21 years ago
A woman's body, her choice, end of story...

Bassdude, is that what you meant by being an extreme liberal?

I don't really consider myself to be extreme, but that is always a matter of perspective.

PMoreno349
21 years ago
Delta, Just a suggestion, maybe you should just drop the word "hate" from your statements. Perhaps using a different descriptor would be a more accurate representation of your position....

If "hate" is what you really mean, then shouldn't you take a close look at that in the context of your professed religious beliefs?
bloody spaniard
21 years ago
"...then why are there laws against suicide?"
CigarRick said: "There shouldn't be."

*Mengele and Kevorkian would be proud of you.



Moreno said: "A woman's body, her choice, end of story..."

*A tired, glib, cliched response- the woman made her choice when she spread her legs. No need to take it out on the fetus/baby.

blood

billyjackson
21 years ago
Ah....been a while since I've seen someone use scripture in an argument with people who don't accept it as such.

Glad I grew up and stopped doing that.
CWFoster
21 years ago
Delta, send me your snailer! [email protected]

Got something for ya!

God bless you my brother!
CigarPrimate
21 years ago
Law and life.

I don't know that much about law, but I do know that a law either exists or it doesn't. A law can say "no green shirts worn on Tuesdays for penalty of death." This law isn't moral or immoral, right or wrong; it means don't wear green shirts on Tuesday to avoid being executed. Obviously, some laws are inherently better than others, and others are plain stupid; that's the nature of law in a dynamic society. A law against suicide is a very peculiar beast though. If a person kills their self, no penalty can be exacted on them by law courts. The corpse could be incarcerated, even beaten; such thinking really has no meaning as such; WTF is a law against suicide? It doesn't take a lot of brain power to conclude that, in some extreme cases of suffering, probably taking some pills and going to sleep makes more sense. In this context, a personal matter such as suicide is best decided on by an individual, and hopefully their doctor, than by some preacher or legislator. This, of course, is my personal opinion. As it stands now, many countries, even the State of Oregon, have laws legalizing Dr. assisted suicide. You may or may not agree with it, but such laws do exist in some places, and do not in others.

Abortion is a similar issue, and I know a little more about it than law, because I study biology. Like suicide, there are laws in some places allowing it, yet some other places have laws outlawing it. Regarding suicide, abortion, and other events, the fact is that different people possess different feelings about what is right, or wrong, and that is normal; we can't even imagine a world where all people always agreed about everything. Regarding when life begins however has no firm support in any case. As far as we know life originated on earth hundreds of millions of years ago, certainly not at the conception of any individual. In humans, a sperm and an egg are definitely alive when they fuse, so the life of a zygote is just the continuation of the lives of a sperm and an egg. Even then however, no part of a person appears till about a week or two after the zygote forms. The first days after the fusion of sperm and egg forms a ball of cells, a blastocyst, and then a trophoblast, none of which contain the embryo yet. Later, after a week or so a mass of cells called the 'inner cell mass' forms; these are the stem cells we hear so much about, and they eventually go on to develope into an organism. You would really have to wait till the inner cell mass forms before you could claim you're terminating the organism, because before then, one doesn't exist, just the trophoblast, which goes on to become placenta. However, most abortions occur after the inner cell mass has formed, so this distinction isn't really an issue. After this point, like suicide, it's comforting to think the decision would be between the pregnant person, and hopefully, a doctor. Decisions about intimate issues such as suicide and abortion aren't a modern problem, but have had to be dealt with in the real world for thousands of years, even before modern inventions like laws and books came into being. My personal view is that it's a woman's choice, as the counter-view runs dangerously close to the radical islamic view that women are property to be controlled and regulated. If men were the ones having babies, then it would be a men's issue. Of course, the moral distinction expressed here between "should or could" is my own opinion, which is mutually exclusive from any law that may or may not exist. Having two daughters however, I cannot but come down in favor of supporting women's rights. If I ever decide to commit suicide to alleviate suffering, you know, that's just my own business; screw the law. If my daughters ever felt they needed an abortion, that too would be their own personal concern, I'm just glad we jave laws allowing them that choice, should it come down to it.
tornado
21 years ago
A woman's body, her choice, end of story...

-------------------------------------------

That's nonsense. There are 2 bodies involved, and one of them isn't allowed a say in the deal. That's the problem.
snowwolf777
21 years ago
billyjackson

Grew up, eh?
RICKAMAVEN
21 years ago
18delta

your faith is to be respected, but keep it to yourself.

science does not say we came from monkeys. you are just not aware of facts that you disagree with. they aren't facts.

i thought this was put to rest during the scopes trial, but it wasn't, it won't, amd so it goes.

RICKAMAVEN
21 years ago
18delta

my dsl is back up and i see i have missed much.

i have studied more about the bible then you have and it is a myth to explain what happened. if you chose to believe in it as passionately as you do, i see no objection. i think you are and should be fine with your beliefs.

now how about recognizing my belief system and granting me the same respect.

i will look forward to your response that respects my personal beliefs.
bassdude
21 years ago
Pmoreno - I never said you were extreme. I said you posted comments that dripped of poor taste and that it was folks like you who give liberals a bad name.

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