If I can't talk about them firing rockets at Israel and behaving really badly for a half century, then you can't bring up how horrible they behaved in 1970.

But at least you established their history of bad behavior for us. Thanks.

frankj1 wrote:

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination.

HockeyDad wrote:

They already did. Like 2-3 years ago. Actually several top Hamas guys have said that.

borndead1 wrote:

I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.

HockeyDad wrote:

I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.

HockeyDad wrote:

Like NO, there official position is the destruction of the Jewish state..

Can't let one or two moderates confuse things ?.

topper7788 wrote:

I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.

HockeyDad wrote:

I pretty much totally agree with this. The current status quo is more favorable to Israel than any possible peace solution. (The key here is nobody can actually admit this.)

Right now Hamas is not the dominant power but I'm sure they will be after another 2 years of failure at peace negotiations. The best thing that could happen to solidify this is another war before the September UN meeting. Something needs to be done to re-convince the world that Palestinians cannot be good neighbors.

If Hamas were smart, they would come out tomorrow and recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for Israel recognizing the right for a Palestinian state and Palestinian self-determination. I would also release Shalit with absolutely nothing in exchange. That would be a checkmate move. I have no expectation Hamas is smart.

HockeyDad wrote:

Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.

borndead1 wrote:

OK guys.....seriously.....I know I hammer you guys hard on this one and it mainly is because nobody can actually say what they mean or want because it is so incredibly politically incorrect to admit.

From a USA standpoint. Israel has forced us into a position of defending a 44 year long military occupation and 500K Israeli Jews that have colonized the West Bank with the backing of the military occupation. We give political lip service saying it should end on negotiated borders but we all know the USA will fully back it never ending.

Since World War 1, the USA has fought in many wars to stop exactly what we now defend as an exclusive right for Israel but nobody else in the world. (remember how fast we tossed Iraq out of Kuwait.)

Is there a peace solution that Israel and the Palestinians could actually accept. Put aside the political rhetoric.....

What is a workable solution?

HockeyDad wrote:

Their TOP GUY in Syria said several years ago that Hamas would recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for a return to the pre 1967 borders, the right of return for Palestinian refugees, and East Jarusalem as the capital. Several other top Hamas guys have said the same thing since then. Sure, there are still Hamas guys who say they will never recognize Israel, just like there are Israeli political and religious leaders who call for the entire region to be Israel. It's always the blowhards who grab the headlines and get their soundbytes played.

borndead1 wrote:

Dude, come in from the fringe, we need your brain power. There is not now nor has there ever been any serious movement by any serious spokesperson advocating Israel taking over the region, nor has it ever been the subject of any serious news coverage...however, there has been decades of Arab power brokers advocating it and this is irrefutable.

Even the mostly now defunct radical violent JDL (Jewish Defense League) was mostly about defending not expanding.

Be part of the productive debate, seriously. You have to be digging way deep in the strange archives of news coverage to come up with an Israeli movement to own the middle east. Even HD hasn't proposed the belief that Israel is trying to drive all of it's Arab neighbors into the sea, he is saying that the arabs no longer wish to do that to Israel and we disagree on that.

frankj1 wrote:

Why, that's basically the Israeli thinking on the issue... Hamas is the road block, not Israel... Of course o would say the opposite and that Israel never wants peace, which is simply not true... But it has to be a win-win deal, not a Israel loses deal... And your correct, Hamas is not that smart...

topper7788 wrote:

The fallacy with this post is that you obviously see Hamas as a legit Politcal Party,they are not,far from it.

All Hamas is a puppet with the Iranians pulling the strings.

You see..

The Arabs need to remove their Petroleum shaded blinders and see that the end game is Iran being the dominant power in the middle east.

Btw,they detest Arabs,,,



wheel,

wheelrite wrote:

HD,,,

this pretty much says it ....


"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel.
We are preparing for an all out war, a war which will last for generations."
~ Yasser Arafat ~
"The Palestinian people have no national identity.
I, Yasser Arafat, man of destiny, will give them that identity through conflict with Israel."



Arafat,,
a terrorist that made millions $$$$$

wheelrite wrote:

First, it's great to be back!!

OK, the "current status quo" is 40 odd years without war. Sounds like it has been a peace solution, just not a Palestinian statehood solution. How that makes Israel war mongerers is oxymoronic. They have prevented war with a pretty angry group being manipulated disgracefully by pretty clever Israeli haters for over 4 decades.

You have it totally wrong in paragraph 2...something must be done for the first time EVAH to convince the world and more importantly Israel that the Palestinians CAN be good neighbors. Ain't done it yet.

Rumor has it on these boards that Hamas and others have done the recognition thing. How the F did all the news outlets miss this historical announcement? Nonetheless, Hamas is smart in that they hope more folks join your club and eventually make Israel disappear. We all know that Arab negotiators are willing to wait for hundreds of years. may want to start pushing them to change that.

frankj1 wrote:

Not agreeing with all of the above (eg just can't recall Kuwait invading Iraq) but you are right, tis well past the time we move off the spot on which we are stuck. This couldn't have been easy for you, but I am laughing reading "put aside the political rhetoric" immediately below "an exclusive right for Israel..."

Change causes anxiety (intro to social work 101) so I'll understand that you may require a transition period to get it out of your system.

I'll try to be productive...but neo nazis need not apply.

Topper, nice work dude.

frankj1 wrote:

Whether you like it or not, Hamas became a political party.

By the way, I tricked you earlier when I got you to agree that Israel should annex the West Bank and make everyone there Israeli citizens. Israel has actually rejected this idea through at least the last three Israeli presidents. This actually would be considered a pro-Palestinian position. I know.....it is counter intuitive. I just wanted to see if you knew anything about the region.

HockeyDad wrote: