ric, that fine if someone wants to kill themself(tragic, but that's THEIR life). Why put the "stigma" of murder on a doctor's conscience? Meaning that this doctor is ethical. Likewise, why would a human that hasn't even breathed a breath outside of a womb "choose" death?

Death is a consequence of an action. Can an infant really choose to die on thier own? Really? Walk down any maternity ward and look in the area where all of the babies are. Not one of them is grabbing a nurses sleeve and motioning with their other hand in a throat-slitting fashion. In an PICU ward you'd see kids struggling to live and the miraculous thing is that not a one "chooses" to die.

Life is a precious commodity. We're born with one, and the meter starts running the day we "leave" mom. We're not guaranteed tomorrow, today, or even the next half-hour. If you knew you only had today to live would you really choose to be "free"?

Ahhhhh......you see, ladies and gentlemen, if you took offense at my statements, that must mean you possibly have "issues". The same type of issues mentioned in the post.
I, by no means, want to tattoo all Pro-Lifers with that post. If it was taken that way, I do sincerely apologize (tailgator). It was aimed at those who have lost their way in the name of God's will.

BTW, I am a devote Christian, but I do not poke my head in the sand of righteousness as life passes by.

devout...sorry

Ok so if someone is on a life support machine and will not be able to live without it and this is a permanent condition then it is ok to disconnect the machine and in effect end the life.

Would not a women's body be considered a life support machine for her fetus? If it was determined that an unborn child was not able to survive on its own would an abortion therefore be ok? In essence the abortion is the disconnecting of the life support machine, the mother.

Guys, no one will "win" this debate.....no one will be lured to or from the "darkside of the force". The elements surrounding this social dilemma are fueled by religious and political beliefs; therefore, nothing will be changed in this forum.

I hope the best for all of you and apologize if I've offended any of you.

Sonny

I'm not trying to win a debate. I'm just trying to post food for thought.

There is a neat lyric from a Suicidal Tendency song named "You Can't Bring Me Down" that I think of when people apologize for offending people on this board. I think it goes "...and if I offended you, well I'm sorry but maybe you needed to be offended..."

Pla, the mother isn't a machine. It's not providing an artificial means of support. It's creating. When the child is developed enough it's "birthed" and now it's on it's own...living, breathing etc.

The womb is an environment for the baby.

Have a nice day!

Can the baby survive on its own before it is born? No. Therefore the mother is its life support. Artificial vs. natural its all the same in my book. My question was what if its determined before the birth that the child will not be able to survive on its own once its birthed.

I'm not talking about aborting a healthy baby. I'm talking about aborting one that can not and will not survive on its own.

Simply...

abortion

n 1: termination of pregnancy 2: failure of a plan [syn: miscarriage]

The mother can choose not have a baby, but the "brain dead" person cannot choose to be disconnected from life support.

If you don't have a "living will" stating your needs, then a doctor will PRESERVE life as his first instinct. If you don't have it in writing, it's not going to happen.

I have a child that fits into your category. She's not supposed to be alive. She's paralyzed from t-4 down. She's 15 and in high school. We make choices in life. Given all of her problems and all of her triumphs I wouldn't even think of life without her, and I'm POSITIVE I can speak for the wife on that one too!

Plabonte : Would not a women's body be considered a life support machine for her fetus? If it was determined that an unborn child was not able to survive on its own would an abortion therefore be ok? In essence the abortion is the disconnecting of the life support machine, the mother.

Turn this Around.. the Woman is Pregnant and she has a bad car accedent or something that renders her Brain dead... the baby is fine but nothing will bring her back.. would it be ok to unplug the woman from the life support?
if there is 1-99% chance that the baby could servive.. then thats a chance that has to be taken... I am Pro Life but in an issue as this one has been, I feel in some cases it is the Womans choice.. Not for any other reason other than Medical reasons that would cause fatel to the woman or the child or both... not to just discard a living being because it was an accadent in conception.. or birth defects.. No other reason should be deamed IMO...

Hog

I'm glad to hear your positive story Dr.MV. Although I may not share your beliefs on this subject it does bring up an important point that doctors are not always right.

I agree with you usahog that in some instances abortion should be allowed. I'm not talking about abortion as a form of birth control. I'm talking in cases where it is detrimental to the woman's health to have the child, or in the case of pregnancy through rape, or in the case where a child isn't expected to live. (although DR MV has me thinking about that last one)

On a similar idea there is a pill called the "Day after Pill". I don't know all the specifics but it in essence is used the day after conception may have occurred and it in effect aborts the growing cells. Obviously there is no heart beat the day after conception. For you pro-life advocates, is this pill just as wrong as a regular abortion and if so is it wrong in all instances or are there some where it could be used?

Plabonte, it's called RU-486...

Break it down...Are You For Eighty-Six? As in 'can' it?

Wonder if the name for the morning after pill was intended as a pun...hmmm?

I'd have to catergorize it in the ending a life catergory.

Many times, a woman's egg is fertilized and then rejected by her body for implantation and subsequent pregnancy. It is expelled unknowingly during her cycle.

If it implanted, and began to grow to the point that she realized she was pregnant, then 'miscarried', it would be called a spontaneous abortion. The body occassionally aborts all on it's own. Whether we choose it or not.

But to take the morning after pill, a choice, is to make certain that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life, is a definite attempt at termination. Whatever you want to call it.

Thanks E. You are right about the name. I had forgotten because in college we learned about it as the day after pill.

So if I take an action that "...make(s) certain that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life ,is a definite attempt at termination"

If I use a condom or my partner takes the pill we are attempting to make sure that any cells that may have come together to start to form a new human life. According to E's definition this is an attempt at termination and is therefore abortion.

OK maybe that isn't exactly what she meant but at what point does life start? Is it the exact moment of conception, or when the heart starts beating, or when the sperm is swimming in the testes and the egg floating in the overy? At what point does attempting to stop the creation of life become immoral and wrong?

Hey E,
The M.A.P. is basically the same formula as a birth control pill, only in a higher concentration. The doctors sell this to the public. The same results can be obtained by taking a large dose of one's oral contraceptives. It is basically changing the woman's harmones and altering her cycle.

I worked for Planned Parenthood for 3 years maintaining their computer system. The 10 centers that I was associated with DID NOT perform abortions. They are a woman's healthcare facility. Women came to them as they would a gynocologist. They did exams etc. Some of our facilities even did primary care. The difference is that they work on a sliding scale for pricing. This allowed the "less fortunate" to also have quality healthcare and pay less money.

I don't want to get into this since everyone has their own views on this matter. This debate can go on forever!!

Low

Let's get back to cigars... So, How do you guys like those Bucanero Full Sails???

I didn't get any. Someone must have aborted my shippment.

Good post there Low...I don't use oral contraceptives...it's not my 'mouth' that I'm worried about! LOL! Had to say that one, lol!

Anyway, I don't use them and was unaware that they could be used in that manner...thanks for the info.

BTW, I absolutely DO use birth control. It's called Erica and Kevin, LOL! I'm done! Kids, the best birth control known to man (or woman)!

That reminds me of a joke E:

Two sperm are swimming. Sperm #1 says, "Boy am I tired. Are we at the Uterus yet?" Sperm #2 replies, "Uterus! We aren't even past the esophagus."

LMAO !!!