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ZRX1200 Offline
#101 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:37 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
Yes all wonderfully effective programs.......one and all.
wheelrite Offline
#102 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:38 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
The interstate highway system, social security, medicare, medicaid, medicare prescription drug coverage, post office, unempolyment insurance, public housing section 8, food stamps, school lunch and breakfast programs, department of agriculture and farm subsidies, FDA, schools, . . . . . wait, we already have those.

Your middle finger must need some medical attention. I sure hope you have insurance.


All a waste of money,,,

except the Interstate system .It benefits Free Trade..
ZRX1200 Offline
#103 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:44 PM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,626
And more union labor.
tweoijfoi Offline
#104 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:44 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
HockeyDad wrote:
FuzzNJ,

How much are you personally willing to pay so that everyone has access to affordable healthcare?


This comment!

What the hell do you think health insurance is?

UnitedHealth Group is the #1 health insurer in the US, covering 70 million people. The people who use their insurance get less for their buck in order to support those who are sick. That how insurance works!

The difference is that insurance companies will cut you off as soon as they can if you get sick, and won't support you if you are already sick.
wheelrite Offline
#105 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:47 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tweoijfoi wrote:
This comment!

What the hell do you think health insurance is?

UnitedHealth Group is the #1 health insurer in the US, covering 70 million people. The people who use their insurance get less for their buck in order to support those who are sick. That how insurance works!

The difference is that insurance companies will cut you off as soon as they can if you get sick, and won't support you if you are already sick.


Bull chit....

If you're high risk you pay more.So,instead of Granny and GranPa buying a Motor Home.They pay for their own health care...
FuzzNJ Offline
#106 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:48 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
All a waste of money,,,

except the Interstate system .It benefits Free Trade..


I'm aware of your and other randian conservatives philosophy on that. F, the old, the poor, the sick, the crippled and all that. All too aware. Free market capitalist jesus loves you, only if you can work for the corporate oligarchy, otherwise your soylent green.
tweoijfoi Offline
#107 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:48 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
FuzzNJ wrote:
The interstate highway system, social security, medicare, medicaid, medicare prescription drug coverage, post office, unempolyment insurance, public housing section 8, food stamps, school lunch and breakfast programs, department of agriculture and farm subsidies, FDA, schools, . . . . . wait, we already have those.


All a waste of money,,,

except the Interstate system .It benefits Free Trade..


Schools are a waste of money?
wheelrite Offline
#108 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tweoijfoi wrote:
All a waste of money,,,

except the Interstate system .It benefits Free Trade..


Schools are a waste of money? [/quote]

Is that a rhetorical question ?

Have you seen how awful the students perform here,eventhough we waste/spend the most on education per student in the world ?
FuzzNJ Offline
#109 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:51 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
ZRX1200 wrote:
And more union labor.


Yay, a decent wage and benefits! Yeah, that sucks huh?

WTF is wrong with you? Are you a freakin' multi-millionare living off your interest? No? Then why fight for those who are instead of people like you? Seriously f'd up man.
wheelrite Offline
#110 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:52 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
I'm aware of your and other randian conservatives philosophy on that. F, the old, the poor, the sick, the crippled and all that. All too aware. Free market capitalist jesus loves you, only if you can work for the corporate oligarchy, otherwise your soylent green.


No,
F the lazy...
and freeloaders...
tweoijfoi Offline
#111 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
No,
F the lazy...
and freeloaders...


I would love to hear what your idea of a perfect government is.
FuzzNJ Offline
#112 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:56 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Schools are a waste of money?


Is that a rhetorical question ?

Have you seen how awful the students perform here,eventhough we waste/spend the most on education per student in the world ?[/quote]

Yeah, we should just stop educating our children. That will bring us back to the top.

What kind of fantasy world do you people live in? I mean wtf?
FuzzNJ Offline
#113 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
tweoijfoi wrote:
I would love to hear what your idea of a perfect government is.


Somolia
wheelrite Offline
#114 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 8:58 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
Is that a rhetorical question ?

Have you seen how awful the students perform here,eventhough we waste/spend the most on education per student in the world ?


Yeah, we should just stop educating our children. That will bring us back to the top.

What kind of fantasy world do you people live in? I mean wtf?[/quote]

Don't play dumb
The NEA could care less about educating our children.
tweoijfoi Offline
#115 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:03 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
Fun article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

Hey!
wheelrite Offline
#116 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:09 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tweoijfoi wrote:
Fun article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

Hey!


The article claims (with no supporting data) that these people were middle class homeowners.
If that's the case they should've sold the cars,cell phones,satelite and the house to pay their bills before filing BK.

Life can be hard,sux but it's true...

ram27bat
FuzzNJ Offline
#117 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:10 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Yeah, we should just stop educating our children. That will bring us back to the top.

What kind of fantasy world do you people live in? I mean wtf?


Don't play dumb
The NEA could care less about educating our children.[/quote]

Even if true, and? Did your kids get a good education? Were you involved to make sure they did? Was it important to you that they did? Did you make sure you let them know it was a priority for you, them and the family?

My kids have and had great teachers. And I can answer yes to all those questions. Education is local, there are national guidelines, but the teachers are your neighbors. If they suck, it's because you and your neighbors suck. Now if you live in a really poor area, which I know you don't, I would cut you some slack as there is little money.
FuzzNJ Offline
#118 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:12 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
The article claims (with no supporting data) that these people were middle class homeowners.
If that's the case they should've sold the cars,cell phones,satelite and the house to pay their bills before filing BK.

Life can be hard,sux but it's true...

ram27bat



More empathy from the very moral and very christian catholic. You are full of sh*t wheel. I wish there was a god for it to be dissapointed in you.
wheelrite Offline
#119 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:13 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
Don't play dumb
The NEA could care less about educating our children.


Even if true, and? Did your kids get a good education? Were you involved to make sure they did? Was it important to you that they did? Did you make sure you let them know it was a priority for you, them and the family?

My kids have and had great teachers. And I can answer yes to all those questions. Education is local, there are national guidelines, but the teachers are your neighbors. If they suck, it's because you and your neighbors suck. Now if you live in a really poor area, which I know you don't, I would cut you some slack as there is little money. [/quote]

My kids went to private schools...

So,yes I made sure and paid for it myself while paying ridiculously high school taxes...
tweoijfoi Offline
#120 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:23 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
cars,cell phones,satelite and the house


Okay, lets follow this.

They sell their car(s). First, they get substantially less than they paid for their car, because (a) depreciation (normal) and (b) they must sell it in a hurry. Now their transportation depends on their situation. In the city they will be fine because public transportation is widely available (OH NOES TAXPAYERS PAYING FOR THEIR WAY TO WORK). In the suburbs, depending on public transportation (OH NOES). In the less populous areas they are screwed and will have to either be very lucky and find a place close to their rural workplace, or move to a more urban area, which they cannot because cost of living is higher, and moving costs are not cheap. Also they will likely rely on public transportation (NO NOES).

Cellphones generally lose their value rapidly, and are not worth very much. Many no longer use land-lines and their cell phone is their only phone. You must have a phone to get a job (for the most part).

Satellite? More and more do not have one (or cable tv) to begin with. They can get rid it. Should they get rid of the internet bill too? But that also eliminates a big source of information and job-finding. Okay, so they can go to the library but what used to take minutes now takes hours, and $40 a month isn't that much in the grand scheme for the benefits its provides.

The house. Okay... you assume they have a house. Houses take time to sell, unless you want to sell it for less than its worth. You also assume they have some equity built up in the house (i.e. living there more than 5 years). This eliminate quite a percentage of the population, and still provides them with little actual cash, since the housing market is way down from what is likely was when they bought it.


Bottom line... most of these thing will give them little actual cash. What does, will cost them elsewhere.

Basically, sure they live, but their lives are f*cked for many years.

Cool! The system works!
FuzzNJ Offline
#121 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:23 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Even if true, and? Did your kids get a good education? Were you involved to make sure they did? Was it important to you that they did? Did you make sure you let them know it was a priority for you, them and the family?

My kids have and had great teachers. And I can answer yes to all those questions. Education is local, there are national guidelines, but the teachers are your neighbors. If they suck, it's because you and your neighbors suck. Now if you live in a really poor area, which I know you don't, I would cut you some slack as there is little money.


My kids went to private schools...

So,yes I made sure and paid for it myself while paying ridiculously high school taxes...[/quote]

Sending them to private schools doesn't answer my questions though.

Ridiculously high school taxes? In Texas? Compared to where, Mexico? Last I read you were near the very bottom of the list in state and local taxes paid.
FuzzNJ Offline
#122 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:25 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
tweoijfoi wrote:
Okay, lets follow this.

They sell their car(s). First, they get substantially less than they paid for their car, because (a) depreciation (normal) and (b) they must sell it in a hurry. Now their transportation depends on their situation. In the city they will be fine because public transportation is widely available (OH NOES TAXPAYERS PAYING FOR THEIR WAY TO WORK). In the suburbs, depending on public transportation (OH NOES). In the less populous areas they are screwed and will have to either be very lucky and find a place close to their rural workplace, or move to a more urban area, which they cannot because cost of living is higher, and moving costs are not cheap. Also they will likely rely on public transportation (NO NOES).

Cellphones generally lose their value rapidly, and are not worth very much. Many no longer use land-lines and their cell phone is their only phone. You must have a phone to get a job (for the most part).

Satellite? More and more do not have one (or cable tv) to begin with. They can get rid it. Should they get rid of the internet bill too? But that also eliminates a big source of information and job-finding. Okay, so they can go to the library but what used to take minutes now takes hours, and $40 a month isn't that much in the grand scheme for the benefits its provides.

The house. Okay... you assume they have a house. Houses take time to sell, unless you want to sell it for less than its worth. You also assume they have some equity built up in the house (i.e. living there more than 5 years). This eliminate quite a percentage of the population, and still provides them with little actual cash, since the housing market is way down from what is likely was when they bought it.


Bottom line... most of these thing will give them little actual cash. What does, will cost them elsewhere.

Basically, sure they live, but their lives are f*cked for many years.

Cool! The system works!


You forgot dude. F them. It's the American way.
HockeyDad Offline
#123 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:26 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
tweoijfoi wrote:
This comment!

What the hell do you think health insurance is?

UnitedHealth Group is the #1 health insurer in the US, covering 70 million people. The people who use their insurance get less for their buck in order to support those who are sick. That how insurance works!

The difference is that insurance companies will cut you off as soon as they can if you get sick, and won't support you if you are already sick.



It was a simple question. re-read it.
HockeyDad Offline
#124 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:30 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
tweoijfoi wrote:
Fun article:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

Hey!



That isn't shocking. Who should pay those bills so those bankruptcies can be avoided?
FuzzNJ Offline
#125 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:30 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
It was a simple question. re-read it.


Very, very simple.
wheelrite Offline
#126 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:32 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
My kids went to private schools...

So,yes I made sure and paid for it myself while paying ridiculously high school taxes...


Sending them to private schools doesn't answer my questions though.

Ridiculously high school taxes? In Texas? Compared to where, Mexico? Last I read you were near the very bottom of the list in state and local taxes paid. [/quote

property taxes here are high,,,

whether it's state income tax or something else it all equals out..

The county I live in pays nearly the highest property taxes % in the south..

Collin County Tx,,
HockeyDad Offline
#127 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:32 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
tweoijfoi wrote:



Bottom line... most of these thing will give them little actual cash. What does, will cost them elsewhere.

Basically, sure they live, but their lives are f*cked for many years.

Cool! The system works!



The system would work fine if you gave them some cash. How much can we put you down for?
wheelrite Offline
#128 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:33 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
You forgot dude. F them. It's the American way.


No they F'd themselves for not saving and preparing.
tweoijfoi Offline
#129 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:36 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
HockeyDad wrote:
The system would work fine if you gave them some cash. How much can we put you down for?


I cannot fathom what your point is. Go on....?
wheelrite Offline
#130 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:39 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tweoijfoi wrote:
I cannot fathom what your point is. Go on....?


of course..

Libs give very little to charity...

makes sense now,right ?
tweoijfoi Offline
#131 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:40 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
No they F'd themselves for not saving and preparing.



http://www.shrm.org/Publications/HRNews/Pages/WorkersWallets.aspx

More than three fourths of U.S. workers are living paycheck to paycheck

Granted, its an online survey and so highly biased. Honestly I think most people could afford at least a few months of living expenses.

How old are you, wheel, of you don't mind me asking?

Also you act as if all people can put aside a few hundred a month no problem.
fishinguitarman Offline
#132 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:41 PM EST
Joined: 07-29-2006
Posts: 69,152
tweoijfoi wrote:
http://www.shrm.org/Publications/HRNews/Pages/WorkersWallets.aspx

More than three fourths of U.S. workers are living paycheck to paycheck

Granted, its an online survey and so highly biased. Honestly I think most people could afford at least a few months of living expenses.

How old are you, wheel, of you don't mind me asking?

Also you act as if all people can put aside a few hundred a month no problem.







He's 48 or 9
tweoijfoi Offline
#133 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:43 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
of course..

Libs give very little to charity...

makes sense now,right ?


Perfect sense. Charity is the answer to everything! You are so generous!
FuzzNJ Offline
#134 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:43 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Sending them to private schools doesn't answer my questions though.

Ridiculously high school taxes? In Texas? Compared to where, Mexico? Last I read you were near the very bottom of the list in state and local taxes paid. [/quote

property taxes here are high,,,

whether it's state income tax or something else it all equals out..

The county I live in pays nearly the highest property taxes % in the south..

Collin County Tx,,


I just looked up the stats and awww. Looks like you are high for the south, but c'mon. I have a normal house, nothing spectacular and I pay more than 50% more per year than your county's median.
HockeyDad Offline
#135 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:44 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
There is nothing like a good con game to rile up the people.

FuzzNJ equates access to affordable healthcare to national defense.

Tweoijfoi is all worried about healthcare costs causing bankruptcy.



If the issue was that important, we would have solved it quite easily with Medicare for everyone. The only debate would be how to fund it.

What we got was Obamacare which was a nice giveaway to the insurance companies and the drug companies.

For or against it, everybody got conned.
tweoijfoi Offline
#136 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:44 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
I would still like to hear your ideal system, wheel. We're squabbling over peanuts.
FuzzNJ Offline
#137 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:47 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
No they F'd themselves for not saving and preparing.


lmfao. It's just that simple. I'll be sure to tell that to the sick, infirmed, special needs, old folks who had their savings stolen by the wall street thieves who were bailed out, etc.

Your life is just a fantasy.
tweoijfoi Offline
#138 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:48 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
HockeyDad wrote:
There is nothing like a good con game to rile up the people.

FuzzNJ equates access to affordable healthcare to national defense.

Tweoijfoi is all worried about healthcare costs causing bankruptcy.



If the issue was that important, we would have solved it quite easily with Medicare for everyone. The only debate would be how to fund it.

What we got was Obamacare which was a nice giveaway to the insurance companies and the drug companies.

For or against it, everybody got conned.


I don't think Medicare is the solution haha.

But I agree. :)

There's a lot of confrontation here, but we all agree on some things.

There's something to say for reconciliation.
wheelrite Offline
#139 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:48 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
tweoijfoi wrote:
http://www.shrm.org/Publications/HRNews/Pages/WorkersWallets.aspx

More than three fourths of U.S. workers are living paycheck to paycheck

Granted, its an online survey and so highly biased. Honestly I think most people could afford at least a few months of living expenses.

How old are you, wheel, of you don't mind me asking?

Also you act as if all people can put aside a few hundred a month no problem.


I'm 47,,
and Yes most people could save.
Welfare recipients have cell phones,big screen TVs and multiple cars. People confuse wants with needs.

My wife and have worked hard for many years.we skrimped when our kids were young.
Btw,
When each of my children were born we had NO health insurance. We were in our very early 20s.I paid in advance for the 1st .The 2nd was a complicated preganancy and delivery.I paid it off in a few months.

That's what a responsible person does.Not walk awayor expect tax payers to pay for it..
wheelrite Offline
#140 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:51 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:
lmfao. It's just that simple. I'll be sure to tell that to the sick, infirmed, special needs, old folks who had their savings stolen by the wall street thieves who were bailed out, etc.

Your life is just a fantasy.


really ?

well how for the first 160 yrs of our countries history did people survive ?
FuzzNJ Offline
#141 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:51 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
There is nothing like a good con game to rile up the people.

FuzzNJ equates access to affordable healthcare to national defense.

Tweoijfoi is all worried about healthcare costs causing bankruptcy.



If the issue was that important, we would have solved it quite easily with Medicare for everyone. The only debate would be how to fund it.

What we got was Obamacare which was a nice giveaway to the insurance companies and the drug companies.

For or against it, everybody got conned.


On the last point I agree. The bill we got sucked huge!

Obama f'd it up by not fighting harder and starting from the medicare for all position. No doubt.

But the issue is that important, it's just that there are people with power, power to stop legistlation that don't want medicare for all with very loud mega-phones. And there are people who want medicare for all who are too damn wimpy to put up a fair fight.

It will happen though, someday.
HockeyDad Offline
#142 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
If people live paycheck to paycheck, they are overspending. Hopefully they augment that with some credit card debt as well.

It is the American way.
wheelrite Offline
#143 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:56 PM EST
Joined: 11-01-2006
Posts: 50,119
FuzzNJ wrote:


It will happen though, someday.


it already has comrade..
In Cuba,USSR etc.It has failed every time.

Please tell me when socialism/marxism has ever worked ? It's a flawed Pie in the Sky dogma..
HockeyDad Offline
#144 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 9:58 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,156
FuzzNJ wrote:
On the last point I agree. The bill we got sucked huge!

Obama f'd it up by not fighting harder and starting from the medicare for all position. No doubt.

But the issue is that important, it's just that there are people with power, power to stop legistlation that don't want medicare for all with very loud mega-phones. And there are people who want medicare for all who are too damn wimpy to put up a fair fight.

It will happen though, someday.




Which gets back to my original question which spawned outrage.....

How much money is medicare for all worth to you? There is going to be a big bill to pay to accomplish it and nobody can honestly believe it is zero cost.

If it costs you an EXTRA $1000/yr is it worth it? $1000? $10000? Remember, it is as important as national defense so money should be no object.
tweoijfoi Offline
#145 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:03 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
I'm 47,,
and Yes most people could save.
Welfare recipients have cell phones,big screen TVs and multiple cars. People confuse wants with needs.

My wife and have worked hard for many years.we skrimped when our kids were young.
Btw,
When each of my children were born we had NO health insurance. We were in our very early 20s.I paid in advance for the 1st .The 2nd was a complicated preganancy and delivery.I paid it off in a few months.

That's what a responsible person does.Not walk awayor expect tax payers to pay for it..


That's very good for you. And I agree in that we all need to pay for our healthcare. I'm 24. I was without health insurance for about 8 months 2 years ago. I'm just happy I was healthy and I didn't need it. It was a calculated risk. It would have cost me more (very little) to pay for limited healthcare for that span. I worked and went to school during that time. I would've paid for it but it would have set me back several years.

My problem with healthcare is this... About 4 years ago I had a benign lump removed. Just a fatty tissue; from my arm. Luckily I was under my parents insurance at the time. If I had not been, it would have cost about $4,000. When I went for my operation there was a surgeon, a nurse, and an anesthesiologist. From the time I walked in to the operate room to the time I left it was about 35 minutes. It was a routine operation and I was unconscious for about 25 minutes. How did that cost $4,000? Something is wrong.

My mother felt like was having heart palpitations a few months ago. She went to the hospital because she feared for her life. She got a device to monitor her heartbeat, was observed for 12 hours, then release (with the device) for another 72 hours. There was some confusion with the insurance company, and initially my family thought they'd owe about $15,000 for this. There was no surgery or complex procedures. Something is wrong.

There are countless other cases like these. Simple procedures supposedly costing thousands of dollars when the interaction with actual doctors took only minutes. What is going on?

I'm not saying people shouldn't save, or that some people aren't responsible and do not. I save. Over 15% of my income goes straight into savings, and I'd give more if I could, but student loan payments, and other things take up more than I'd like.

The fact of the matter is, how much you save matters little when simple procedures cost so much. It's ridiculous and needs to be fixed. Insurance is a buffer between us and the insane costs. I wish everyone could afford it, but really the question is... why do we need this buffer? Why do simple procedures cost SO much?
tweoijfoi Offline
#146 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:04 PM EST
Joined: 09-22-2010
Posts: 395
wheelrite wrote:
it already has comrade..
In Cuba,USSR etc.It has failed every time.

Please tell me when socialism/marxism has ever worked ? It's a flawed Pie in the Sky dogma..


Well since anything that benefits everyone is socialism/marxism (thank you conservative radio and fox news!)

USA, Canada, England, Germany, France...
FuzzNJ Offline
#147 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:07 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
really ?

well how for the first 160 yrs of our countries history did people survive ?


Really?

People survived, sure. Some of them. Why do you think the life expectancy was so low?

You have read about how the mentally ill were treated, right?

You are aware of the medical care and how it was crap, right? How you could pay the local doctor with a chicken?

Things change, technology moves forward, the world is smaller because of travel and communication, we've evolved both physically and socially. We no longer think that we can heal with leaches or by casting out demons. We know that a human being is a human being no matter what color their skin is. All these things make a difference. You must also realize that capitalism wasn't around all that long either as we know it also.
tailgater Offline
#148 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:08 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I think we can all agree that the healthcare system in the US is more than just a little flawed.

But we have to stop citing the "facts" from biased sources, and we need to look at real life.

Does anyone know of somebody who paid their insurance but was then refused care when they got sick? I believe there are laws to prevent this. And I'm not talking about getting a new policy or switching insurers.
Has anyone been "denied access" to healthcare? Because this seems to be the battle cry.

Living on Cape Cod, I went through 4 doctors in as many years.
When I confronted one of them to ask why they were leaving their practice (in this case, to work directly for the local hospital) he said "Because it costs too much to stay insured".

Further investigation with friends who are doctors (off Cape, but still in MA) confirmed this as the biggest obstacle in getting their own practice. Some have joined co-ops to help defray the costs.
And this works, but only in the more highly populated areas.

And let's not forget about all the testing that we do in America that is not routinely performed in other nations with lower per capita medical costs. How many of those countries perform routine mamograms, or twice annual cholesteral tests, or even have the insurance pay for boner pills??

We do pay more here. But we demand more also. And we sue more when something goes wrong.
So our insurances go up disprortionately to cover these costs.
And then mom and pop middle america who live in east bum can't afford a policy unless they get minimal castostrophic coverage with high deductibles, and the socialists look for someone to blame.

We need a solution.
But due to the costs we may not be able to provide "cheap" coverage that matches an expensive policy. That's simple economics.

Health insurance has always (in my lifetime) been expensive. That's why good, strong companies offered it as a perk to their employees.
But this perk became an obligation. And now in Massachusetts a company is legally obligated to provide insurance to their employees or face a fine. Wrap your mind around that for a while, because it's insane.

So much for perks.
And so much for common sense.
FuzzNJ Offline
#149 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:11 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
it already has comrade..
In Cuba,USSR etc.It has failed every time.

Please tell me when socialism/marxism has ever worked ? It's a flawed Pie in the Sky dogma..


Countries with universal health care:

Norway
New Zealand
Japan
Germany
Belgium
England
Kuwait
Sweden
Bahrain
Brunei
Canada
Netherlands
Austria
Uae
Finland
Slovenia
Denmark
Luxembourg
France
Australia
Ireland
Italy
Portugal
Cyprus
Greece
Spain
South Korea
Iceland
Hong Kong
Singapore
Switzerland
Israel
tailgater Offline
#150 Posted: Thu, Jun 23 2011, 10:12 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
As for Canadian healthcare?

Let's put this to bed right now.
It's great if you need a check-up, or have a cold, or maybe even a broken foot.

But try to get a new knee replacement or a schedule heart bypass.
Good luck.

Chances are, you'll drive down to the States and pay for it yourself.
Go to one of the world class hospitals in Boston (for instance).
Count the number of Canadian license plates.

It's staggering.
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