America's #1 Online Cigar Auction
first, best, biggest!

Just saying I'm "misguided" and don't know what I am saying is not an actual argument against what I have said.

State something I said which was incorrect, and then we can have a discussion.

Is so.

I snoped this.
He's right.

Damn snopes... foiled again

This is the grey area.
I live in Massachusetts. My boy is not in the scouts. I don't know the "rules".
But it is my impression that, although they may forbid an openly gay father from being a troop leader, I never thought this would mean that the kid of gay couple couldn't join.
And I would find it difficult to believe that such an exclusion would ever be proposed in my town.

The BSA simply does NOT teach scouts to be anti-gay, regardless of what is exercised at the management level.
This is not to say that I agree or dissagree with their sentiment. Simply that it's not an "agenda" as some have suggested.

It's clearly not an "Agenda" as the BSA is now punting to the local troops.
That means that the issues which were in place were around local involvement (ie, what I discussed... are gay parents allowed to participate with their children? If the BSA knows a father is gay, will they restrict him from being a chaperon on some outing (pun intended)...)

Then there is the larger issue, my understanding is that bsa progresses into high school. What happens when a scout realizes they are gay. Are they allowed to remain in the scouts?

Like I said, I don't think there is an "Agenda". But I suspect that this arose because of some level of exclusion of either gay parents or gay scouts from participation that non-gay individuals were allowed. I could probably look up what started it, but I'm feeling lazy today.

Sounds like the scouts should adopt the rugby means to determine sexuality. If their ****** tastes like sh*t, they must be gay!

Let me guess... from the "straight" troops?

Vic, you do realize that the gay-exclusion didn't cause these professions to be magnets for pedophiles, don't you? It's the opportunity, not the restrictions.





Bad argument.
Think about it: would an adult man be allowed to be an overnight chaperone or troop leader for the local Girl Scouts or Brownie troop?
the answer is a resounding NO.

Many anti-gay activists use this SAME logic to argue against gay troop leaders.

.

Victor you are one of the most dense people I have run across.

Everything I wrote directly or indirectly deals with the BSA in one form or another. So let me brake this down for you, now if I had a purple dinosaur suit aka Barney I would explain it to you wearing that in person, so that any five year old could understand it.

1) The rules to exclude homosexuals from being in the BSA, was not just because they were gay. It was to protect our children. Granted not all gays are pedophiles, but exposing them to that life style increases the risk does it not?

Now hold on sit tight changing gears here a bit, ok, but I'm going with the theme of protecting our children ok.

2) To protect our children laws were passed to put scumbags like pedophiles behind bars. F**k their rights if they forced themselves on children.

3) What good is having laws if we don't enforce them as we should? Should all rapist, murders, drug dealers just be given a slap on the wrist because prison doesn't correct their behavior, hell no!

Time to shift gears again, ok.

4) Groups seeking acceptance in their boy loving ways would love to jump at an openly gay accepting BSA.

Now shifting gears one last time, ok

5) I did say I would not knowingly put them in danger right? So yeah there are hidden dangers that I don't know about. But I have taken some steps in protecting my children.

6) Answer this questions here:

a) do you have kids?
b) If so are they in the BSA?
c) if not would you allow them in the BSA?
d) If you have a son would you feel comfortable for him to "supervised" by a gay troop leader?

Look, we are only talking about gay and lesbian preclusion here. But, since you insist on adding in the red-herrings of swingers and polygamists, whose life styles IMO are their own business, still say keep it to themselves and I have no problem with them in any way either.

Let’s see…

Victor was never in the Boy Scouts.
Never attended any BSA ceremony, camp out, den meeting…
Does not have kids
Has no desire to have kids
Has stated more than once that he hates kids

And he’s here telling others what the BSA polices should be?

That’s a head scratcher.

You may infer what ever you want about my thoughts on what BSA meetings and activities are all about, but you are dead wrong. Dredging up connotations of the KKK, bible study, discussions about gays and non-Christians isn't even on my radar. I was a cub scout and boy scout myself. I had some good experiences too, just like you describe.

And "yes" the board made it crystal-clear that the only reason we were not contributing/donating was because of its stand on homosexuality. I am sure they thought our denial sucked, but kids weren't involved in the request or BSA presentation. It was only adults. And, while they didn't expect to be shot down for that specific reason, they said they understood. We merely asked them to communicate our message upward in their hierarchy and told them to come back when BSA drops its stand on homosexuality.

As far as God having mercy on my soul, I will leave that decision to him alone.

LMAO@Dave's "damn proud about"!! (trying hard to be indignant & so sad it's funny) (insert applause for Dave here)


I grew up in a traditional family but it didn't particularly target gays, any more than it did jews, wasps, Chechnyans, old/tall/short people, etc. No, we grew up knowing that we were all different but united by our humanity. What we WERE taught was that certain "behaviors" were unnatural/sinful, dangerous, and unhealthy whether it was homo, hetero, drug, or violence- related.

I had lots of fantastic gay friends as an adult. Many were attractive, smart, upwardly mobile, & sophisticated. The ONE thing that almost all had in common was that they were UNASHAMEDLY horndogs- ALWAYS on the make. They'd admit to it & laugh about it. Lesbians were particularly cruel in pointing it out to their male counterparts. So funny now that I think about it.

Sorry but I will not have Bukake Bob, Cornhole Charlie, or Gloryhole George taint my son with whatever lurks in his diseased imagination. I as an adult can take it and even laugh about it. I'm not going to hold it against him/her. He has it hard enough (so to speak), but a child is a beautiful clump of innocent, unformed clay. Much as a sapling needs proper nourishment and wooden stakes for support, a child needs guidance and protection so that it doesn't grow crooked. When he is older, he can be accountable for his own choices.

What?! No congrats to Jim Nabors on his marriage to his pal Stan of 38 years??????
Shaaaaaaaazam!

A good point. However, I do find it odd that we don't see as many incidents in other professions which have the opportunity. Pediatricians, teachers, birthday clowns... whatever groups are around kids... I'm not saying it's causal, I'm just curious in this case.



I don't know... I assume (could be wrong) that an adult male parent can chaperon a group of brownies... can't they? Hell, I don't even know how many adults they have on these things.

Not to point out the obvious... but if ANYONE (gay or straight, married or single) shows an interest in being a scout leader and didn't have kids, they would be my priority #1 suspect for diddling the troops. Who the hell would want to be around a bunch of snot-nosed little Sh3ts unless they're trying to get off on it.

My discussion up to now has been about people who actually have a reason to be there. Honestly, I assumed the BSA had a "if you don't have a reason to be here get the f* out" policy. Why wouldn't they?

Do some research like I've done you can find many cases. Hint use Google, you will be surprised to see what I'm talking about.

Maybe it's not just opportunity, but also depravation.
Priests aren't allowed to have sex, and, well, let's face it. Boy Scout Troop leaders aren't exactly rock stars...




I don't "know", but it's likely that men aren't allowed on girls scout over nights.

First off Buck... me telling other people what to do... are you surprised? :)

This started because some individuals were whining about the change, and whether it was "pressure".
I simply tried to normalize it against the christian groups similar stances...

.... and then the discussion got a little off track.

sounds like pedophile talk to me....

For some reason this reply keeps resonating in my head. Not sure why. Perhaps it's telling of something deeper in Victor's childhood, and who he is today...who knows. I've never met Victor, and for as long as I've been on the forum, I can't say I know that much about him.

How do you know that you were "fortunately spared" of that? You say that as if you knew, had you joined the scouts, you would have come out of scouts as this right-wing, Jesus, whacko or something. Do you recall ever wanting to join the scouts? Not that there's anything wrong with wanting or not wanting to join...it's like sports or any other extra-curricular activity.

I'm not saying things are bad for you now, things might be great, but how do you know you wouldn't have become a different person, or the same person, but better off for it had you been able to join the scouts? The title of Eagle Scout is (or used to be) very impressive on a resume. No sense going there since there's no changing the past. Maybe your dad figured scouts wouldn't be for you (or him) due to the "jesus element." Maybe he saw that as trying to protect you from that aspect of scouting...which is fine with me. You portray him as anti-jesus/christian even though the discussion of Jesus/Christianity has never been brought up in any scouting event I can recall being a part of. Perhaps he would have been more accepting of the scouts and let you join had the leadership been openly gay (or more accepting of gays) vs. openly Christian. Who's to say?

Is suspect you're reading too much into this dave. I went to exactly one meeting of the cub scouts at some point in my life. It looked like fun, and I definitely was jealous of the kids that got to wear their uniforms to class. But I already had swimming taking up my evenings and weekends, and I think I was still racing quarter midgets on some weekends. I don't know the exact reason we never went back (my memory of that age is horrible, so I can't tell you if I was consulted or not). My initial comment was very tongue in cheek. Knowing my father is a very strong atheist, I would not be surprised if he would have somewhat discouraged something that demanded saying "god" all the time. My mother was still taking me to church at that age (it would still be a couple years before I decided to tell her that I disagreed with the stuff they were teaching in catechism class because it flew directly in the face of things I was learning about the world in school). I'm sure I would have left the scouts on my own free will at the same time I left the church (4th or 5th grade) because I remember being disgusted by the "under god" statement in the pledge of allegiance at that age.

Victor needs one.




(j/k)

Anybody else find these exchanges anal? Mebbe it's me.