Abrignac
2 years ago

No, that is not what I think. I think Americans should be smarter – which we can both agree is a stupid thing to say.

Of “Every major manufacturer”, second and third by volume are the Volkswagen Group and Hyundai/Kia. They are not “pulling back on EV’s” – far from it, particularly in the case of Kia. And BYD’s volume is half that of GM.

Now our legacy brands – Ford and GM – are struggling to make EV’s at a profit. And in GM’s case have offerings that are nothing short of self-destructive (who the hell wants a 10,000 pound electric Hummer for over $100,000???). And they are having trouble selling them – because their offerings are not compelling or a particularly good value.

Ford and GM may never be able to compete. Understand that they are “car assemblers” not makers – they make almost nothing. Put them against new tech companies that are not beholding to long time vendors and contracts, and they cannot just “change”. BYD and Tesla own virtual the whole process – even owning Lithium mines. And they are true technology companies. In the end, cost, value, and quality will own the market. I wish the American makers good luck – they truly need it.



Originally aircraft was “not ready for prime time”. But governments invested in them – to be used as weapons. In a similar way the Chinese are funding an arms race over marketing automobiles.

And we will ignore it.

Brewha wrote:




https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/volkswagen-indefinitely-delays-launch-key-ev 

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/mercedes-benz-will-no-longer-go-all-electric-1235521320/ 

Oops…. Who would have thought….
rfenst
2 years ago
Another Roadblock to the EV Transition: Personal Politics
As automakers look to push their electric vehicles, some consumers are resisting for political reasons


WSJ
On paper, Robert Olson is a prime candidate to buy an electric vehicle.

The retired Arizona engineer loves cars, has owned hybrid vehicles and has the means to pay the premium for an EV. And he owns two gas-powered cars, including a Porsche, that he could use for longer road trips.

But Olson is turned off by electric cars. He thinks their potential to help the climate is overstated, and he resents the Biden administration’s pro-EV policies.

“It is being pushed down our throats,” said Olson, who says he is a Republican.

Automakers are fixated on easing the practical concerns around electric-vehicle ownership, primarily high prices and charging hassles. But in the industry’s quest to persuade more Americans to consider EVs, a swath of the buying public could prove tough to convince: those opposed to EVs for political or ideological reasons.

In a recent Morning Consult poll of about 2,200 American adults conducted for The Wall Street Journal, about four in 10 said they had an unfavorable view of EVs. Of those who are opposed to them, 38% said their political views were a factor. Even more of those with unfavorable views—63%—cited China’s dominance of the EV supply chain as a reason.

As for party affiliation, 31% of people who identified themselves as conservative said they had a favorable view of EVs, compared with 66% of liberals.

Green cars long ago became swept up in the culture wars. In the early 2000s, many conservative commentators maligned Toyota’s Prius hybrid, which became a hit with liberals and Hollywood celebrities.

In 2012, then-Republican presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich criticized General Motors’ Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid for not being able to fit a gun rack. During a congressional hearing around that time, then GM CEO Dan Akerson told lawmakers: “We did not engineer the Volt to be a political punching bag.”

In the run-up to the November election, some Republican candidates have criticized Biden for trying to force EV sales. Democrats, meanwhile, have touted the tens of billions of dollars in federal funding for battery factories and other EV projects.

Automakers not only have to win over conservative car buyers. Some of their own dealers have a dim view of battery-powered cars due to ideological reasons. Dealer David Ferraez said he thinks the media and government espouse an inflated view of the risks of carbon emissions to push more EVs into the market.

Nonetheless, Ferraez, who sells GM’s Buick, GMC and Chevrolet brands in New Jersey, has spent more than $300,000 to install electric-car chargers at his stores.

“I do want to sell what the customer wants,” he said.

Giving buyers a choice
At Kia, Center said the brand has emphasized an array of options—straight gas-engine models, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and full electrics—to make clear it isn’t trying to force anyone into an electric vehicle. But Kia is also heavily advertising its EVs.

“We’re talking to the broader part of the market that has an open mind about EVs, rather than trying to convince the part that has their heels dug in,” he said.

John Bozzella, president of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents most major car companies, said the group has stressed to regulators that consumers should have choices even as emissions rules are tightened.

The group lobbied the Biden administration to include plug-in hybrid models, which travel in electric mode for some distance before a gas engine kicks on, in its calculation of the Environmental Protection Agency’s new emissions standards.

“Political persuasion is a pretty good indicator of a willingness to purchase an EV right now,” Bozzella said. “I don’t think that is a forever situation.”

South Florida car dealer Bill Wallace has noticed that more customers have been expressing a sour view of EVs over the past year.

His company sells several brands that have relatively popular electric models, including Ford, Hyundai, Kia and Cadillac, and EVs account for about 5% of his total sales. But he estimates about one-third of the customers he speaks with about EVs express adamant opposition.

“They are angry,” Wallace said. “They feel like it’s the government trying to control their lives.”

Wallace said he broached the subject during a conversation with GM CEO Mary Barra at a private luncheon in Florida late last year. GM, more than many other car companies, has bet its future on EVs and is marketing them aggressively.

“I said, ‘Mary, you have to understand the red-state mentality. These people want no part of it,’” he said.


DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/volkswagen-indefinitely-delays-launch-key-ev

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/mercedes-benz-will-no-longer-go-all-electric-1235521320/ 

Oops…. Who would have thought….

Abrignac wrote:



Posted links with the same sentiment weeks ago.

He doesn't or can't read. Everyone here knows he DGAF and is dumber than a bag of hammers. Best just to let him finish and laugh when he comes up for air!
DrMaddVibe
2 years ago

Another Roadblock to the EV Transition: Personal Politics
As automakers look to push their electric vehicles, some consumers are resisting for political reasons


WSJ
On paper, Robert Olson is a prime candidate to buy an electric vehicle.

The retired Arizona engineer loves cars, has owned hybrid vehicles and has the means to pay the premium for an EV. And he owns two gas-powered cars, including a Porsche, that he could use for longer road trips.

But Olson is turned off by electric cars. He thinks their potential to help the climate is overstated, and he resents the Biden administration’s pro-EV policies.

“It is being pushed down our throats,” said Olson, who says he is a Republican.

Automakers are fixated on easing the practical concerns around electric-vehicle ownership, primarily high prices and charging hassles. But in the industry’s quest to persuade more Americans to consider EVs, a swath of the buying public could prove tough to convince: those opposed to EVs for political or ideological reasons.

In a recent Morning Consult poll of about 2,200 American adults conducted for The Wall Street Journal, about four in 10 said they had an unfavorable view of EVs. Of those who are opposed to them, 38% said their political views were a factor. Even more of those with unfavorable views—63%—cited China’s dominance of the EV supply chain as a reason.

As for party affiliation, 31% of people who identified themselves as conservative said they had a favorable view of EVs, compared with 66% of liberals.

Green cars long ago became swept up in the culture wars. In the early 2000s, many conservative commentators maligned Toyota’s Prius hybrid, which became a hit with liberals and Hollywood celebrities.

In 2012, then-Republican presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich criticized General Motors’ Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid for not being able to fit a gun rack. During a congressional hearing around that time, then GM CEO Dan Akerson told lawmakers: “We did not engineer the Volt to be a political punching bag.”

In the run-up to the November election, some Republican candidates have criticized Biden for trying to force EV sales. Democrats, meanwhile, have touted the tens of billions of dollars in federal funding for battery factories and other EV projects.

Automakers not only have to win over conservative car buyers. Some of their own dealers have a dim view of battery-powered cars due to ideological reasons. Dealer David Ferraez said he thinks the media and government espouse an inflated view of the risks of carbon emissions to push more EVs into the market.

Nonetheless, Ferraez, who sells GM’s Buick, GMC and Chevrolet brands in New Jersey, has spent more than $300,000 to install electric-car chargers at his stores.

“I do want to sell what the customer wants,” he said.

Giving buyers a choice
At Kia, Center said the brand has emphasized an array of options—straight gas-engine models, hybrids, plug-in hybrids and full electrics—to make clear it isn’t trying to force anyone into an electric vehicle. But Kia is also heavily advertising its EVs.

“We’re talking to the broader part of the market that has an open mind about EVs, rather than trying to convince the part that has their heels dug in,” he said.

John Bozzella, president of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents most major car companies, said the group has stressed to regulators that consumers should have choices even as emissions rules are tightened.

The group lobbied the Biden administration to include plug-in hybrid models, which travel in electric mode for some distance before a gas engine kicks on, in its calculation of the Environmental Protection Agency’s new emissions standards.

“Political persuasion is a pretty good indicator of a willingness to purchase an EV right now,” Bozzella said. “I don’t think that is a forever situation.”

South Florida car dealer Bill Wallace has noticed that more customers have been expressing a sour view of EVs over the past year.

His company sells several brands that have relatively popular electric models, including Ford, Hyundai, Kia and Cadillac, and EVs account for about 5% of his total sales. But he estimates about one-third of the customers he speaks with about EVs express adamant opposition.

“They are angry,” Wallace said. “They feel like it’s the government trying to control their lives.”

Wallace said he broached the subject during a conversation with GM CEO Mary Barra at a private luncheon in Florida late last year. GM, more than many other car companies, has bet its future on EVs and is marketing them aggressively.

“I said, ‘Mary, you have to understand the red-state mentality. These people want no part of it,’” he said.


rfenst wrote:




When you have an administration propping up an entire sector with tax incentives and rebates to build, oh lets just say "widgets"...it becomes political.

You're not going to change my mind.
Brewha
2 years ago

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/volkswagen-indefinitely-delays-launch-key-ev

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/mercedes-benz-will-no-longer-go-all-electric-1235521320/ 

Oops…. Who would have thought….

Abrignac wrote:



When I read that any legacy car maker is is going 100% electric - ever - much less my some future year - I don't really believe it.

They all will keep making ICE cars as long as people buy them. Why would they not?
Sure - it may sound appealing to some to hear that a car maker is "committed to going green", but the truth is that they are committed to making a buck.

And I believe that EV adoption will continue to slow. And that legacy makers will have more trouble competing - some will fail.

Remember that this a smart person's game.
Brewha
2 years ago

Another Roadblock to the EV Transition: Personal Politics
As automakers look to push their electric vehicles, some consumers are resisting for political reasons

rfenst wrote:



One of the things that is quite clear from this thread alone is how little the facts get in the way of people's opinions.
Many here see EVs as a purely political issue, some feel threatened that their "rights" will be damaged by EVs, and others condemn the technology purely based on the hearsay and options of others.

And if you try to assess EVs on a purely technical and dispasionit basis - as I try to - then you are called an idiot. And a liar.

It's not that people don't understand, it is that they don't want to understand.

I would not have guessed it, but EVs are a political football - at least to most people.
rfenst
2 years ago

When you have an administration propping up an entire sector with tax incentives and rebates to build, oh lets just say "widgets"...it becomes political.

You're not going to change my mind.

DrMaddVibe wrote:


Of course it is political. Americans can't help themselves.
There is often a political component of cars.
My grandparents, for example, wouldn't even consider buying Ford because Henry Ford was an avowed anti-semite.
Used to be the same with Jews and Mercedes and BMW.
When I was a kid, buying a Mercedes by a Detroit Jew was heavily looked down upon.
Again, pure politics...
Abrignac
2 years ago

One of the things that is quite clear from this thread alone is how little the facts get in the way of people's opinions.
Many here see EVs as a purely political issue, some feel threatened that their "rights" will be damaged by EVs, and others condemn the technology purely based on the hearsay and options of others.

And if you try to assess EVs on a purely technical and dispasionit basis - as I try to - then you are called an idiot. And a liar.

It's not that people don't understand, it is that they don't want to understand.

I would not have guessed it, but EVs are a political football - at least to most people.

Brewha wrote:



Sorry but you don’t seem to understand.

First and foremost is the issue of batteries which are the fuel cells. The raw materials required to manufacture them as well as the actual factories that produce them is largely controlled by our most powerful political enemy, China. To risk the future of our economy on whether or not China will supply batteries to autos sold in the US in the future is poor policy. To avoid that problem battery manufacturing plants need to be built here that can supply our needs. Since manufacturers won’t do that because they are unsure of the future a huge subsidy by our government would be required.

Then there is the problem of charging stations. The Biden administration has pledged to build 800 or more by 2030. Yet, only have been built since the announcement of those plans a couple years ago. This of course also requires a huge subsidy.

At the moment we are seriously over our head in debt as a nation. In fact, interest payments out pace defense spending. Social Security is projected to be cut in the near future because benefits exceed revenue. So for the government to spend trillions of dollars for these subsidies means one thing. Increased national debt leading to even higher interest payments that become a larger percentage of annual spending.

So one has to wonder how we are going to pay for all the subsidies necessary to compete with China in the EV market.
HockeyDad
2 years ago



So one has to wonder how we are going to pay for all the subsidies necessary to compete with China in the EV market.

Abrignac wrote:




I know this one….raise taxes!!!
HockeyDad
2 years ago

One of the things that is quite clear from this thread alone is how little the facts get in the way of people's opinions.
Many here see EVs as a purely political issue, some feel threatened that their "rights" will be damaged by EVs, and others condemn the technology purely based on the hearsay and options of others.

And if you try to assess EVs on a purely technical and dispasionit basis - as I try to - then you are called an idiot. And a liar.

It's not that people don't understand, it is that they don't want to understand.

I would not have guessed it, but EVs are a political football - at least to most people.

Brewha wrote:




Sometimes EVs are just a little ghey. Need to factor that in also.
Brewha
2 years ago

Sometimes EVs are just a little ghey.

HockeyDad wrote:


But not yours - right?
Brewha
2 years ago

Sorry but you don’t seem to understand.

First and foremost is the issue of batteries which are the fuel cells. The raw materials required to manufacture them as well as the actual factories that produce them is largely controlled by our most powerful political enemy, China. To risk the future of our economy on whether or not China will supply batteries to autos sold in the US in the future is poor policy. To avoid that problem battery manufacturing plants need to be built here that can supply our needs. Since manufacturers won’t do that because they are unsure of the future a huge subsidy by our government would be required.

Then there is the problem of charging stations. The Biden administration has pledged to build 800 or more by 2030. Yet, only have been built since the announcement of those plans a couple years ago. This of course also requires a huge subsidy.

At the moment we are seriously over our head in debt as a nation. In fact, interest payments out pace defense spending. Social Security is projected to be cut in the near future because benefits exceed revenue. So for the government to spend trillions of dollars for these subsidies means one thing. Increased national debt leading to even higher interest payments that become a larger percentage of annual spending.

So one has to wonder how we are going to pay for all the subsidies necessary to compete with China in the EV market.

Abrignac wrote:


So we agree there is a political aspect to EVs. As I suppose there is to Oil and Gas production as well.

But none of those things we a factor in me buying one. But many who should buy one will pass on them because of the political noise.

Agreed that China in the market is a point of concern. So what is the correct political answer?
Encourage and subsidise development, manufacture and adoption?
Sell people on the idea that EVs are bad and hope they just go away?
Do nothing and see if China really does kick our azz?

Here in Texas they imposed a $200 year tax on EVs. I just paid it. So they went with option #2 above.
Texas is an oil and gas state - "and we don't need no Lefty EVs here".
- yippee ki-yay
HockeyDad
2 years ago

But not yours - right?

Brewha wrote:



Mine is cool. It’s lifted with oversized tires.
Brewha
2 years ago

Mine is cool. It’s lifted with oversized tires.

HockeyDad wrote:


Is it a good manly color?
It's not like turquoise or anything right?
jeebling
2 years ago
The subsidies to oil and gas make it a slam dunk for a political football IMO, add to that the amount spent on lobbying efforts. Ditto for renewable energy but they also have the hilarious tag of “green energy” which is even funnier than “clean coal”.
Abrignac
2 years ago

So we agree there is a political aspect to EVs. As I suppose there is to Oil and Gas production as well.

But none of those things we a factor in me buying one. But many who should buy one will pass on them because of the political noise.

Agreed that China in the market is a point of concern. So what is the correct political answer?
Encourage and subsidise development, manufacture and adoption?
Sell people on the idea that EVs are bad and hope they just go away?
Do nothing and see if China really does kick our azz?

Here in Texas they imposed a $200 year tax on EVs. I just paid it. So they went with option #2 above.
Texas is an oil and gas state - "and we don't need no Lefty EVs here".
- yippee ki-yay

Brewha wrote:



By what criteria do we determine who is someone that SHOULD buy an EV?

We should add additional subsidies to a Federal Budget that is already $2-3T in the red?


Brewha
2 years ago

By what criteria do we determine who is someone that SHOULD buy an EV?

Abrignac wrote:



"We" don't. People do.
And they should make good choices based on good information - rather than political opinions that something is too left, or too right.

When I was in my thirties I should have bought a Corvette.
A car that cost too much, uses to much gas, and cannot haul shlt. But perfect for me. So I did. Zero regrets.

Today, I wanted something faster than my Corvette. Four doors, cheap on gas, zero maintenance. no more trips to the gas station where one might just get shot. So, I should have bought a Model 3. Two years, zero regrets.



We should add additional subsidies to a Federal Budget that is already $2-3T in the red?

Abrignac wrote:



No - I asked you first. What is the correct political answer?
Abrignac
2 years ago

"We" don't. People do.
And they should make good choices based on good information - rather than political opinions that something is too left, or too right.

When I was in my thirties I should have bought a Corvette.
A car that cost too much, uses to much gas, and cannot haul shlt. But perfect for me. So I did. Zero regrets.

Today, I wanted something faster than my Corvette. Four doors, cheap on gas, zero maintenance. no more trips to the gas station where one might just get shot. So, I should have bought a Model 3. Two years, zero regrets.




No - I asked you first. What is the correct political answer?

Brewha wrote:




You said people who should buy one. what do you mean by that? Who are these people you refer to and why should they buy one.

For the record I asked you that before you asked what is the correct political answer.
HockeyDad
2 years ago
People should buy EVs if they believe the government and the people that fly around in private jets that tell them they should buy an EV.
Brewha
2 years ago

You said people who should buy one. what do you mean by that? Who are these people you refer to and why should they buy one.

For the record I asked you that before you asked what is the correct political answer.

Abrignac wrote:



Ok - I see now.
"People who should buy one" summons up images of an oppressive government controlling people lives - my bad.

While vehicle purchase are more emotion than logic, for each person the is a type of vehicle that best suits their needs.
Own a boat? get a truck.
Solo city commuter? Get a Econo-box.
In a band? buy a van. (huh - that rhymes).

I should buy an EV:
Solo commute to the office - less that 100 miles/day - do not like to drive 700 miles without a pizz brake.
Own a home and can charge there - saves megabucks on fuel costs - gas stations stops suck.
Tired of maintenance; oil, radiator, tune up, etc.
Like to go fast. Faster than most - really f*ckin fast.

And in past post I have outlined who should not buy an EV.
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