QUOTE: Firstly, I'm a gun owner and I like guns. That said, perhaps if more responsible gun owners would quit trying to convince others that the government is out to get them and focus more on solving the riddle of "why do people in America kill each other for no reason at all," we would have a better society to live in.



QUOTE: Do you honestly think the gov fears us? They play us with their media and propaganda on a daily basis, and we get on our knees and allow it. Why do I say that? Be the one on this board that questions what Uncle Sam is up to these days and see what the general answers from the general public on this board will be.....



Just an observation: It sounds to me like you have your own paranoia about the government.





QUOTE: "why do people in America kill each other for no reason at all," we would have a better society to live in.

ANSWER: It has nothing to do with “our” society. Violence happens every day all over the world in every society ever known since the beginning of time. It is the nature of man to be easily swayed by evil, greedy and violent thoughts.

Arioch

What you said makes sense except for the last part. We kill far more people with hand guns in this country (per capita) than any other country in the world. Why is that so? I don't propose to have the answer.

Wagner

I bet in some third world countries they kill more people with rocks per capita than we do

Wagner,
Please back up your statement with some actual statistics and tell us where you got them. It's one thing to say that we have the highest murder rate with handguns per capita, it's another thing to prove it. Even if true, I'm not sure what difference it makes. Is it better to cut people's heads off or stone them to death? Are people who are killed with handguns as opposed to knifing or hanging somehow worse off? As Archie Bunker would say "Would it make you feel any better if they were thrown out of a window?"

Here is some interesting reading material:
http://www.vangcomp.com/overseas.html#Canada%20is%20Safer 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment02/ 

Pancho:

Here's one I found in 5 seconds under google. There are many others.

U.S. Leads Richest Nations In Gun Deaths




BY CHELSEA J. CARTER
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



ATLANTA -- The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.

It's interesting that wanker had to go back "11" years to prove a point.

Well during the caveman reign in the land to later be known as America, I am proud to say there was not one death attributed to firearms.

LMAO


JonR

OK jon:

This is from 2001-late enough for you--or do you want yesterday's numbers. Notice the 13.47 deaths per 100,000 pop.

Sorry, for any format problems--it was copied and pasted from the web.

Table 1 - International Firearms Regulation, Access and Death
Country Licensing of gun owners? Registration of firearms? Other Households with firearms (%) Gun Homicide (per 100,000) Gun Suicide (per 100,000) Total Intentional Gun Death Rate per 100,000
Japan Yes Yes Prohibits handguns with few exceptions 0.6 0.03 0.04 0.07
Singapore Yes Yes Most handguns and rifles prohibited 0.01 (795 in the country) 0.07 0.17 0.24
Taiwan N/A N/A N/A 0.15 0.12 0.27
Kuwait N/A N/A N/A 0.34 0.03 0.37
England/ Wales Yes Yes Prohibits handguns 4.0 0.07 0.33 0.4
Scotland Yes Yes Same as England and Wales 4.0 0.19 0.30 0.49
Netherlands Yes Yes 1.9 0.27 0.28 0.55
Spain Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 13.1 0.19 0.55 0.74
Ireland Yes Yes N/A 0.30 0.94 1.24
Germany Yes Yes 8.9 0.21 1.23 1.44
Italy Yes Yes N/A 1.16 1.11 2.27
Sweden Yes Yes Restrictions in some regions 20 0.18 2.09 2.27
Denmark Yes Long guns only 8 0.23 2.25 2.48
Israel Yes Yes N/A 0.72 1.84 2.56
New Zealand Yes Handguns. Proposed for long guns 20 0.22 2.45 2.67
Australia Yes Yes Banned semiautomatics unless good reason 16.0 0.56 2.38 2.94
Belgium Some Yes Some rifles are prohibited 16.6 0.87 2.45 3.32
Canada by 2001 All guns by 2003 Assault weapons and some handguns 26 0.60 3.35 3.95
Norway Yes Unknown 32 0.36 3.87 4.23
Austria Yes Yes Some handguns and rifles are prohibited 16-18% 0.42 4.06 4.48
Northern Ireland Yes Yes UK legislation applies 8.4 3.55 1.18 4.72
France Yes Yes, except sporting rifles 22.6 0.55 4.93 5.48
Switzerland Yes Yes 27.2 0.46 5.74 6.2
Finland Yes Yes No prohibitions 50 0.87 5.78 6.65
USA in some states Handguns in some states Some weapons in some states 41 6.24 7.23 13.47
Source: W. Cukier, Firearms Regulation: Canada in the International Context, Chronic Diseases in Canada, April, 1998 (statistics updated to reflect most recent figures, January 2001)

Just to clarify, the last number in each line is the #intentional deaths per 100,000 population.

11 years old and from AP.

I don't doubt that the fact is true, but I think people should check their facts before simply repeating something they heard from AP a decade ago.

Sorry to lash out, but anyone who thinks gun control is the answer to (real or imagined) crime problems in the United States has no clue.

More people are "killed by" cigarettes each year than guns. (source, CDC website, 400,000+ fatalities each year related to cigarette smoking versus 11,829 firearm-related homicides in 2002). Should we have "cigarette control" and require cigarette smokers to register, obtain a permit, and wait 5 days before buying a pack? If, as adroomi so dramatically stated, we are "mass murdering" ourselves with guns, then we are super-double-extra-mass murdering ourselves with cigarettes and the government must step in and save us from ourselves. See how stupid the argument is?

There are more than enough laws on the books to reasonably regulate guns in this country. The problem is that they aren't being enforced, or aren't being enforced smartly. "Controlling" the guns purchased by the law abiding portion of our society is extraordinarily stupid and does nothing to curtail violent crime.

Pancho:

I was trying to respond to Arioch's posting where he stated:

QUOTE: "why do people in America kill each other for no reason at all," we would have a better society to live in.

ANSWER: It has nothing to do with “our” society. Violence happens every day all over the world in every society ever known since the beginning of time. It is the nature of man to be easily swayed by evil, greedy and violent thoughts.

If you take his post at face value it would appear to mean we Americans are more evil, greedy, and have more violent thoughts than people of other countries. Maybe we do but I don't buy it. There is something else going on here. I am not saying unequivicably it is due to guns, but maybe we should consider the case in the face of these statistics--or at least offer an alternative explanation.

Wagner

It's not my intention to attack you, Wag. Just a dialogue.

The question is simply how do we reduce crime? The answer is to punish criminals. If you think guns make crime worse or more prevelant, then push for stricter enforcement of existing gun laws. How about this: anyone convicted of a crime in which a gun is carried or used gets a minimum of xxx years in prison. Then, actually put them in jail for that long.

It is not the fact of gun ownership that creates crime. It is the use of guns by criminals. That's why gun control in the grand sense is so absurd. That's also the point made in the article I linked earlier. Countries with strict gun control still have violent crime. Maybe not as much gun-related crime, but crime nevertheless.

All right, I'm spent. Time for a cigar.

Pancho:

I'm with you on that one--Time for a cigar!

I didn't take your comments as attacks. And personally I am in favor of owning handguns and rifles--but not the semi-automatic type. Those just don't make sense to me.

I don't know what the answer is--just adding my 2 cents to the puzzle.

Wagner

Wagner

For once you and I agree on something, other than cigars are good! LOL

I am against the semi automatics and the riot control guns! POlice should have them, not citizens!

Charlie

Yo Wagner:

Yesterdays numbers would be nice but I would settle for 2004 numbers, that way we would know your an honest man and not just picking the years where the numbers suit your purpose.

JonR

jon:

My numbers stand. I offered 2 different years of data from 2 different periods. Now get off your lazy ass and do some reasearch of your own to refute them.

Yeah folks, I know I'm being condescending again but how much of this nonsense must one tolerate.

Wagner

jon:

My numbers stand. I offered 2 different years of data from 2 different periods. Now get off your lazy ass and do some reasearch of your own to refute them.

Yeah folks, I know I'm being condescending again but how much of this nonsense must one tolerate.

Wagner

he must be getting to ya real good Wagner... your repeating yourself

now count to 10 and have a smoke

charlie,
When you said:
"I am against the semi automatics and the riot control guns! POlice should have them, not citizens!" you were either making a really dumb joke or you exposed yourself as knowing nothing about either guns or the constitution. At least you are consistent in your cluelessness.

Yo Wagner:

Main Entry: con·de·scend
Pronunciation: "kän-di-'send
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French condescendre, from Late Latin condescendere, from Latin com- + descendere to descend
1 a : to descend to a less formal or dignified level : UNBEND b : to waive the privileges of rank
2 : to assume an air of superiority


Hmmmmmmmmm

LOL

JonR