Abrignac
a year ago

So if you are comparing base model to base model the base Model 3 is $38,990 Not $42,490.

Moreover these two cars are not in the same class. You could get close by going with the Accord Touring Hybrid starting at $38,990 - But it's still not a RWD car of a comparable class.

In fairness, you may look at the accord and see it as directly comparable. Good for you.

But the Accord is a 200 hp FWD car that is kind of a dog off the line. 7.3 second 0-60?? 6.5 for the "hot version"??? My 3 is 4.2 second 0-60 - the "Hot version" 3.1 seconds. Hell it will even drive itself....


Look - you can own and operate an ICE cheaper than an EV - today.
But not in all classes of play.

Brewha wrote:



I said similar equipped and comparable.

The prices come straight off Tesla and Honda’s website. I used the starting at price so I’m not sure how you came up with a different price than Tesla advertises.

As far as 0-60 really a meaningless stat as few people use that on a daily basis.
HockeyDad
a year ago

Well - if you don't have kids, then the local school taxes must really piss you off.

Brewha wrote:



My kids are grown but I don’t mind school taxes. I need those dumb punks to pay my social security one day.
Brewha
a year ago

I predict that vehicles will run on cold fusion engines before one side of this thread agrees with the other

Sunostradamus has spoken

Sunoverbeach wrote:


Speak the truth you do.
Listen, they will not.
Brewha
a year ago

My kids are grown but I don’t mind school taxes. I need those dumb punks to pay my social security one day.

HockeyDad wrote:


I always remember you saying “it takes a village”.
Brewha
a year ago



As far as 0-60 really a meaningless stat as few people use that on a daily basis.

Abrignac wrote:



Suddenly, I feel that I know you much better…..
Sunoverbeach
a year ago

Speak the truth you do.
Listen, they will not.

Brewha wrote:


That hand you're pointing with has three fingers pointing right back atcha
BuckyB93
a year ago

Well - if you don't have kids, then the local school taxes must really piss you off.

Brewha wrote:


So in your mind taxes to fund public education is no different than taxes to fund EV ownership? If that's the case, you have a short circuit somewhere in your thinking and priorities.
Brewha
a year ago

That hand you're pointing with has three fingers pointing right back atcha

Sunoverbeach wrote:


Stubborn I am. True it is.
Brewha
a year ago

So in your mind taxes to fund public education is no different than taxes to fund EV ownership? If that's the case, you have a short circuit somewhere in your thinking and priorities.

BuckyB93 wrote:


No. My point was you are prolly taxed far more for other things you may never use.

Supposedly, taxes are imposed by the people for our greater good. Which sound like an endless argument to me.
You may feel EV adoption is pointless, or that governments should not be involved. I feel I should not be charge $200 a year to register an EV in my state. It’s almost like no one is happy with taxes. 🤔
HockeyDad
a year ago
I thought taxes were imposed by the government to fund corporate welfare, like EV cars!
DrMaddVibe
a year ago

I thought taxes were imposed by the government to fund corporate welfare, like EV cars!

HockeyDad wrote:




And to bail out US auto manufacturers and such.🐴
Brewha
a year ago
Back to the comparison:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/how-electric-vehicle-prices-compare-with-gas-powered-cars.html#:~:text=On%20one%20hand%2C%20EVs%20are,higher%20sticker%20price%20over%20time .

Are Teslas worth the price? How EVs compare with gas-powered vehicles
Published Thu, Sep 14 2023 1:29 PM EDT


For U.S. car buyers looking to save money, knowing whether an electric vehicle will be worth it isn’t always obvious.

On one hand, EVs are usually more expensive compared with similar internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. On the other hand, EVs have cheaper annual fuel and maintenance costs that can make up for the higher sticker price over time.

Plus, EV owners might qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit, which can negate the price difference between EVs and similar ICE vehicles (your state might have credits, too). However, without tax credits, EV owners might have to wait years before the annual cost savings make EV ownership a comparative bargain.

To give you an idea of how it breaks down, here’s a look at the difference in cost between three EVs and comparable ICE vehicles.

For each comparison, we’ll assume that EV buyers will install a 240-volt Level 2 charger in their home, since nearly two-thirds of them do, according to JD Power. While most EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug into standard outlets, the charging speed is too slow for most EV owners.

Keep in mind that all of the figures below are estimates, and that prices may vary.

Tesla Model Y v. Audi Q5 Premium
The electric Tesla Model Y and and gas-powered Audi Q5 Premium, both with the lowest level of trim, are similar compact luxury SUVs, with 2023 base pricing at $51,380 and $45,795, respectively, according to car review website Edmunds.

Model Ys are eligible for a federal EV tax credit worth $7,500, at least until Dec. 31, 2023. But that’s undercut by the cost and installation of a Level 2 charger, which can cost thousands of dollars. Expect to pay around $2,000 as a “reasonable ballpark figure,” according to Kelley Blue Book.

After credits and other costs, the upfront price of Tesla’s Model Y is only about $100 more than the Audi Q5.

But the real savings for an EV kick in after your purchase, given the lower annual fuel and maintenance costs:

Annual charging costs for the Model Y are about $600, compared with fuel costs of around $2,800 for the Q5, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
Annual maintenance for a Tesla is about $823 per year, compared with $928 for a Q5, according to Repair Pal.
That works out to an estimated $11,525 in cost savings for the Model Y over five years.

Nissan Leaf v. Nissan Sentra

Both the EV Leaf and ICE Sentra are affordable, compact sedans made by the same company. At $29,135, the 2023 Leaf has a higher sticker price than the 2023 Sentra, which goes for $21,295, according to Edmunds.

Unfortunately, the Leaf no longer qualifies for the $7,500 federal tax credit due to recently updated manufacturing standards. Throw in a Level 2 charger and the Leaf is nearly $10,000 more than its ICE counterpart.

Even so, the Leaf has lower operating costs:

Annual charging costs for the Leaf are about $650 — less than half of the estimated $1,750 annual fuel costs for the Sentra, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
In this instance, the annual maintenance cost for an EV is higher than that of the ICE vehicle, as the Leaf costs owners an estimated $748 per year, compared with $491 for the Sentra, according to Repair Pal.
That works out to $843 in savings per year for Leaf owners. However, it would take nearly 12 years to make up the $10,000 difference in upfront costs when compared with the Sentra. This really underscores how the federal tax credit can help tip the balance in favor of EVs being a better bargain.

Tesla Model 3 v. BMW 330i

The performance version of the electric Tesla Model 3 and the gas-powered BMW 330i are both powerful luxury sport sedans, with 2023 models costing $54,630 and $44,795, respectively, according to Edmunds.

A Level 2 charger will add another $2,000 to the upfront costs of a Model 3. However, Model 3 owners can still qualify for a full $7,500 tax credit, at least until Dec. 31. 2023. Overall, that works out to an upfront cost of $49,130 — $4,335 more than the 330i.

Then there are annual operating costs:

Annual fuel costs for the Model 3 average $650 — nearly four times less than the average $2,400 annual fuel costs for the 330i, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
Annual maintenance for a Tesla costs an average of $823 per year, while the 330i averages $748, according to Repair Pal.
With annual cost savings of $1,675, Model 3 owners would cover the upfront price difference in just over two and a half years.

Other considerations
Whether an EV is worth buying will depend on other factors, too. With Level 2 chargers, some homes might need upgraded electrical panels that can add hundreds of dollars in extra installation costs. But then again, you could get by with a cheaper Level 1 charger if you only drive about 20 miles each day.

Another factor is that electricity rates vary between states, so ongoing charging costs will vary. Availability of charging stations near where you live is another consideration, in terms of convenience. For maximum flexibility, you could buy a hybrid EV that also runs on gas.

Lastly, sustainability and low carbon emissions might be more of a priority than overall cost.

Whatever you buy, pick a vehicle that best fits your needs.
DrMaddVibe
a year ago
?si=lXOn1WLAZ8JTF6Jq


LOLOLOL!!!![whip]
Abrignac
a year ago

Back to the comparison:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/how-electric-vehicle-prices-compare-with-gas-powered-cars.html#:~:text=On%20one%20hand%2C%20EVs%20are,higher%20sticker%20price%20over%20time .

Are Teslas worth the price? How EVs compare with gas-powered vehicles
Published Thu, Sep 14 2023 1:29 PM EDT


For U.S. car buyers looking to save money, knowing whether an electric vehicle will be worth it isn’t always obvious.

On one hand, EVs are usually more expensive compared with similar internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. On the other hand, EVs have cheaper annual fuel and maintenance costs that can make up for the higher sticker price over time.

Plus, EV owners might qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit, which can negate the price difference between EVs and similar ICE vehicles (your state might have credits, too). However, without tax credits, EV owners might have to wait years before the annual cost savings make EV ownership a comparative bargain.

To give you an idea of how it breaks down, here’s a look at the difference in cost between three EVs and comparable ICE vehicles.

For each comparison, we’ll assume that EV buyers will install a 240-volt Level 2 charger in their home, since nearly two-thirds of them do, according to JD Power. While most EVs come with Level 1 chargers that plug into standard outlets, the charging speed is too slow for most EV owners.

Keep in mind that all of the figures below are estimates, and that prices may vary.

Tesla Model Y v. Audi Q5 Premium
The electric Tesla Model Y and and gas-powered Audi Q5 Premium, both with the lowest level of trim, are similar compact luxury SUVs, with 2023 base pricing at $51,380 and $45,795, respectively, according to car review website Edmunds.

Model Ys are eligible for a federal EV tax credit worth $7,500, at least until Dec. 31, 2023. But that’s undercut by the cost and installation of a Level 2 charger, which can cost thousands of dollars. Expect to pay around $2,000 as a “reasonable ballpark figure,” according to Kelley Blue Book.

After credits and other costs, the upfront price of Tesla’s Model Y is only about $100 more than the Audi Q5.

But the real savings for an EV kick in after your purchase, given the lower annual fuel and maintenance costs:

Annual charging costs for the Model Y are about $600, compared with fuel costs of around $2,800 for the Q5, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
Annual maintenance for a Tesla is about $823 per year, compared with $928 for a Q5, according to Repair Pal.
That works out to an estimated $11,525 in cost savings for the Model Y over five years.

Nissan Leaf v. Nissan Sentra

Both the EV Leaf and ICE Sentra are affordable, compact sedans made by the same company. At $29,135, the 2023 Leaf has a higher sticker price than the 2023 Sentra, which goes for $21,295, according to Edmunds.

Unfortunately, the Leaf no longer qualifies for the $7,500 federal tax credit due to recently updated manufacturing standards. Throw in a Level 2 charger and the Leaf is nearly $10,000 more than its ICE counterpart.

Even so, the Leaf has lower operating costs:

Annual charging costs for the Leaf are about $650 — less than half of the estimated $1,750 annual fuel costs for the Sentra, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
In this instance, the annual maintenance cost for an EV is higher than that of the ICE vehicle, as the Leaf costs owners an estimated $748 per year, compared with $491 for the Sentra, according to Repair Pal.
That works out to $843 in savings per year for Leaf owners. However, it would take nearly 12 years to make up the $10,000 difference in upfront costs when compared with the Sentra. This really underscores how the federal tax credit can help tip the balance in favor of EVs being a better bargain.

Tesla Model 3 v. BMW 330i

The performance version of the electric Tesla Model 3 and the gas-powered BMW 330i are both powerful luxury sport sedans, with 2023 models costing $54,630 and $44,795, respectively, according to Edmunds.

A Level 2 charger will add another $2,000 to the upfront costs of a Model 3. However, Model 3 owners can still qualify for a full $7,500 tax credit, at least until Dec. 31. 2023. Overall, that works out to an upfront cost of $49,130 — $4,335 more than the 330i.

Then there are annual operating costs:

Annual fuel costs for the Model 3 average $650 — nearly four times less than the average $2,400 annual fuel costs for the 330i, according to Fueleconomy.gov.
Annual maintenance for a Tesla costs an average of $823 per year, while the 330i averages $748, according to Repair Pal.
With annual cost savings of $1,675, Model 3 owners would cover the upfront price difference in just over two and a half years.

Other considerations
Whether an EV is worth buying will depend on other factors, too. With Level 2 chargers, some homes might need upgraded electrical panels that can add hundreds of dollars in extra installation costs. But then again, you could get by with a cheaper Level 1 charger if you only drive about 20 miles each day.

Another factor is that electricity rates vary between states, so ongoing charging costs will vary. Availability of charging stations near where you live is another consideration, in terms of convenience. For maximum flexibility, you could buy a hybrid EV that also runs on gas.

Lastly, sustainability and low carbon emissions might be more of a priority than overall cost.

Whatever you buy, pick a vehicle that best fits your needs.

Brewha wrote:



Problem with this is that in these situations the Tesla is compared to luxury cars which close the price gap. Having ridden in 3 different Tesla Model 3 ‘s I can say one doesn’t need to drive a BMW to be comparable to the Model 3. The Honda Accord is every bit as luxuriously trimmed at a huge discount. Sure you can’t go from 0-60 in a stock Accord, but how many people zip from stop light to stop light doing so?
frankj1
a year ago

Back to the comparison:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/14/how-electric-vehicle-prices-compare-with-gas-powered-cars.html#:~:text=On%20one%20hand%2C%20EVs%20are,higher%20sticker%20price%20over%20time .

Are Teslas worth the price? How EVs compare with gas-powered vehicles
Published Thu, Sep 14 2023 1:29 PM EDT



Whatever you buy, pick a vehicle that best fits your needs.

Brewha wrote:




Seems that in between what used to pass as our old school banter and statements like the one above, that's pretty much been your main point...
I assume that's what people will do.

My two experiences, neither one first person:

Close friend ordered the smaller Tesla sedan (the one about the size of a BMW 3 series) when Musk was taking $1,000.00 deposits with the plan being delivery the next year, probably around 2016 or 2017. The price was a little north of 30K.
His car arrived late Winter and he decided to upgrade to all wheel drive at a fairly significant increase, but that car arrived early Spring. He had already had a charger installed at his garage door so he could charge in the garage or in the driveway.

In late June that year, I rode with him to Wild Man Weekend, either to Killington VT or Sunday River ME, in the Tesla.
Stopped once to charge up as we grabbed lunch at a well equipped rest area on the highway. Got back in the car, I believe he estimated he just picked up between 150 and 200 miles, but I can't swear to it.
I have to say the ride was about as amazing as I've ever experienced. The effortless, head snapping passing power and the quietness of the vehicle were nothing like I had ever had in any vehicle.

He parked in one of the few spots with chargers in the lot of the resort and charged up at night.
It was part of his well thought out preplanning for the weekend and it presented no downsides.
It even blew my mind when we were able to pack all our stuff in such a small vehicle...two sets of golf clubs, two suitcases, the required liquid and edible provisions expected for Wild man Weekend...because he pretty much bought a car with a trunk in back and in front!

Second experience:
Another close friend bought a Hybrid/Electric Toyota Rav 4 late May, early June of this year. Similar ooomph etc.
He will use it for all driving except for longer runs, just his daily stuff, even though it does also use gas.
So after one month, he had traveled 1,300 miles and used...A HALF GALLON OF GAS!!
Unless he drives more than something like 50 miles between charges, the car uses no gas at all.

One weird thing, he had to first lease the Rav 4 for one month and then was able to get rebates when he purchased it after 30 days...he says all the rebates were from Toyota and not tax credits or tax related to his finances.
Brewha
a year ago

https://youtu.be/PK_EJ3DyiiA?si=lXOn1WLAZ8JTF6Jq


LOLOLOL!!!![whip]

DrMaddVibe wrote:



WOW - those are some bone stupid people - you must love them!
Brewha
a year ago

Problem with this is that in these situations the Tesla is compared to luxury cars which close the price gap. Having ridden in 3 different Tesla Model 3 ‘s I can say one doesn’t need to drive a BMW to be comparable to the Model 3. The Honda Accord is every bit as luxuriously trimmed at a huge discount. Sure you can’t go from 0-60 in a stock Accord, but how many people zip from stop light to stop light doing so?

Abrignac wrote:



So, the Honda Accord is a luxury car?

I get it that to some, speed does not count. Performance does not count. Convenience does count.

To put it in perspective - how are comparably equipped Accords and BMW 3 series different?
Abrignac
a year ago

So, the Honda Accord is a luxury car?

I get it that to some, speed does not count. Performance does not count. Convenience does count.

To put it in perspective - how are comparably equipped Accords and BMW 3 series different?

Brewha wrote:



I never compared a Honda and a BMW.
Abrignac
a year ago

So, the Honda Accord is a luxury car?

I get it that to some, speed does not count. Performance does not count. Convenience does count.

To put it in perspective - how are comparably equipped Accords and BMW 3 series different?

Brewha wrote:



BTW, how do you define a luxury car since many “non-luxury” cars come many if not all of the same amenities that so-called luxury cars boast having.

Here’s tech info for a 2022 Tesla 3. Sure it’s a couple years old but I doubt there are any water-shed changes.

The base model offers 18-inch wheels and 235/45R18 tires; the Accord comes standard with 17 wheels

Both have dual-zone climate controls; heated and power-adjustable front seats; keyless entry. Electric start is extra on the Accord and start;

Both LED headlights; a panoramic sunroof; split-folding rear seats; and synthetic leather upholstery.

Tech amenities for this trim include an eight-speaker audio system; a 15-inch touch screen (Honda’s is 8” but who needs it when driving?) with a web browser (big whoop) and

navigation capabilities; and a wireless charging pad for two smartphones. Honda has charging ports.

Driver assists such as adaptive cruise control; automatic emergency braking; blind-spot warning; lane-keeping assist; So does Honda.

and front and rear parking sensors are standard. If you can’t park without sensors you have no business driving a car.

Like I said earlier SIMILARLY EQUIPPED
Brewha
a year ago

BTW, how do you define a luxury car since many “non-luxury” cars come many if not all of the same amenities that so-called luxury cars boast having.

Here’s tech info for a 2022 Tesla 3. Sure it’s a couple years old but I doubt there are any water-shed changes.

The base model offers 18-inch wheels and 235/45R18 tires; the Accord comes standard with 17 wheels

Both have dual-zone climate controls; heated and power-adjustable front seats; keyless entry. Electric start is extra on the Accord and start;

Both LED headlights; a panoramic sunroof; split-folding rear seats; and synthetic leather upholstery.

Tech amenities for this trim include an eight-speaker audio system; a 15-inch touch screen (Honda’s is 8” but who needs it when driving?) with a web browser (big whoop) and

navigation capabilities; and a wireless charging pad for two smartphones. Honda has charging ports.

Driver assists such as adaptive cruise control; automatic emergency braking; blind-spot warning; lane-keeping assist; So does Honda.

and front and rear parking sensors are standard. If you can’t park without sensors you have no business driving a car.

Like I said earlier SIMILARLY EQUIPPED

Abrignac wrote:



There is no real standard for defining a luxury car. Many "Lux" cars are such because they are overpriced - or at leased you can get all the same things way cheaper elsewhere. I point to the BMW 3 Series on this - far too much money for too little = "Luxury!"

I would tell you that a Luxury car is about creature comfort, high performance, and needlessly high build quality - so any hand made car. Cadillac is a great example of the lines blurring. The fully dressed chevy version is just as nice as the Caddy version - but "Chevy ain't lux". Or so they say.

Accords come as an Econo-box version and a dressed Lux version. I don't think people regard any accord as a Lux.
Teslas are regarded as luxury because of their Model S and X. I don't think a model 3 is a Lux car - but then again to me neither is a BMW 3.

You feel that an Accord and a Model 3 are in the same class? Good for you. I do not.

Go test drive a 3 and see if you truly disagree. But no matter what you will be right for you. Just like how many spend an extra 20-40 grand to get the vaunted BMW crash test dummy targes badges, because that is "true Lux", maybe the Honda "H" does it for you.
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