Iceburg_30
23 years ago
The Battle Flag is a symbol of culture. It is not about the KKK, it is not about racial hatred, it is not about being or not being an American.

It is about a culture, in which in that current time believed in something and stood by it. The Battle flag was adopted as the Confederate Flag when the southern states succeded from the Union. The Civil War was not fought over slavery it was over capitalism and industry.

The South, while out machined, out manned, and out industrialized still stood for what they believed in and fought for their beliefs. The Battle Flag is a symbol of their belief and is a part of Southern Culture. The Battle Flag deserves to be recongized and respected as such.
DrMaddVibe
23 years ago
Battle flag? Hell, I thought that their battle flag was a big solid white flag!


Har-dee-har-har!
Charlie
23 years ago
Mad Vibe,

You have not studied the history of the Civil War very well, or you would not have made the statement about White Flag and the CSA!

Charlie

PS Yes, I am happy the North won the War, and proud of the Stars and Stripes, but the CSA did not readily surrender!
E-Chick
23 years ago
Xaigoxx,

First of all, my neighbor is NOT flying the Canadian flag OVER the US flag...he's just flying the Canadian one...

Secondly, it is NOT offending me, although it may be very offensive in some ways to some people (who are you to judge if only 'hatred' is a valid reason), I'd personally prefer to see the US flag flown...

Thirdly, if someone, somewhere in the US wants to display a flag or flag-like banner that doesn't suit me, but is within the law, who am I to say...I've seen pics of aborted fetuses plastered all over the side of a van...does it offend me that abortions exist? Yes. Does it offend me that I have to see a graphic picture of bloodied, murdered body displayed so prominently in the public view? Yes. Does it offend me that my children (who were both under 11 years old at the time that we saw this display) had to be enlightened on the subject (it was spelled out for them on the posters)? Yes.

But guess what my friend, i's about freedom of speech.

Lastly, something being 'ok' vs something being a 'right' is two completely different things...it's not 'ok' for me to beat the crap outta my kids, but it is my 'right' to discipline them. It's not 'ok' to stiff a food server on a tip, but it's my 'right' to show or not show appreciation for services rendered. It's not 'ok' to kill a human being intentionally, but it's my 'right' to defend myself and to use deadly force if necessary.

There are many instances that can be set as an example, however important or miniscule they may seem...the point is, this symbol is just that. A symbol. Translate it as you will.

And btw, thank you for educating me on whether or not it is a state flag. With my family's history, I should know better...


chibacity
23 years ago
Well, it symbolizes the battle flag of the Confederate States of America, because that's what it is. For all you people attempting to make an example with an Al Qaeda flag, think about this:

What if Al Qaeda decided to take the Stars and Stripes as their flag? They started waiving it around on badly shot videos shown on that Al-Jazeera (sp?) muslim news station. They started wearing it on their shirts, etc. etc. And people around the world began to think that the Stars and Stripes now represented terrorism and Al Qaeda. Would you then abandon the Stars and Stripes because of what other people thought? Or would you still display it proudly, being confident in it's true meaning to you?

I hope it's the latter. Don't be so quick to judge someone displaying the battle flag of the Confederacy as a hate-monger or KKK loon. It is quite possible that they are a proud Southerner who couldn't give a toss about the KKK.
usahog
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23 years ago
Thank You chibacity , and welcome aboard... your thoughts and statments here could not be more True!!!

it is the USA and it is the freedom of a free nation...
I would not care what flag is being Flown at my Neighbors house... even if it were an Al Quida Flag, but what I would care about is someone putting a match to my American Flag... whether it be on my front porch or in a Demonstration... or even holding the United States Flag Upside down in a manner of Protest.. I would have to exercise my Rights... and let them know that is Illegal to do so.. according to the Rights Established to the U.S. Flag!!! Some people need to think before they Act...

Hog
Robby
23 years ago
so I guess this means a body condom is out of the question?
xaigoxx
23 years ago
first of all.. im not for censorship, i love my freedom of speech, i love this country and what it stands for, and I am NOT quick to judge a person who displays a confederate flag.

But since we're talking about other things now, I'll talk about them to. With what everyone was saying about how offensive things should be allowed because of our first amendment. However, like I said before, should this amendment be allowed to be abused? The right to bear arms is another constitutional right... however we are NOT allowed to purchase assault rifles and such because of the danger that it brings into homes. Most of the guns that we as AMERICANS are allowed to purchase are small side arms and hunting guns. however, this amendment was placed in our Constitution, not for the ownership of guns to hunt deer, but to defend ourselves and our homes from other PEOPLE. However, because of the dangers of gun ownership, this amendment has been modified several times.

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems is showing lack of responsibility. I would NEVEr want anyone to take away my freedom of speech. But... should we allow kiddie porn on the internet? what about those anarchist websites teaching young kids to make bombs and weapons? We say, "these things are offensive yet they are included in our rights". Shouldnt this right also be modified like our right to bear arms? Our problem is, we defend our rights until something bad happens. Some guy molests a young minor, high school students go on a shooting rampage all over the US, or an African American is tied to a truck in texas until he is decapitated... Now what? Who blames who? It couldnt be the kiddie porn on the net, the anarchist websites or hate groups, right? They are law biding citizens.... We dont live in a perfect world, and the world to most people has more gray than black and white... however, somethings are just obviously wrong and should be stopped.
xrundog
23 years ago
Yeah, I'm for free speech. Ya want to fly that flag? Go ahead. But it's pretty damn thoughtless toward your African American neighbors. Slavery was a central issue of the civil war. It was the basis of the souths economy. There were other issues. All connected in one way or another with slavery. State's rights? Yeah, the right of a state to determine if it would be pro slave or not. The south was afraid that new states would be made non slave. This would give the antislavery folks a majority in congress. It was just a matter of time before slavery was abolished. The south had too big an investment and too much to lose. To be African American and be faced with that flag flying from a State Capitol might make one think that if ones neighbors had their way, you might be chopping cotton today. I can't control what you hang on your house. And I don't want to. But any Government entity which receives funds from, and allies itself with the Federal Government, should not be flying that flag. Because in a way it suggests that yes, the south lost the war but has not given up the fight. The largest concentration of African Americans outside the urban centers still live in the south. I think they deserve not to be reminded daily of what it represents to them.
Robby
23 years ago
heh, xaigoxx "I own an assault rifle" 🙂 It’s an FN FAL, 308, 20 round clip and it is one mean piece of hardware. Can you tell me how many times the second amendment has been modified? I don't recall any constitutional amendments affecting my "Right" to keep and arm bears? What you’re referring to is the Gun Control lobby enacting specific local legislation ostensibly for the safety of their citizens. Guess what, DC has the most restrictive gun laws in the country, care to guess who has one of the highest murder rates?

Qstn, who should be allowed to decide if I'm abusing my right to free speech? Child porno is against the law because it's “abusing children”, how does that equate to a flag that some support and others reject? Can you say "specious?" You want your argument to be efficacious, but instead it's just defecacious...

Richard Gere stood up at a 9/11 commemoration dinner and said “Give peace a chance”. He was boo’ed off the stage. I would have boo’ed too. But I wouldn’t prevent him from voicing his opinion just because it offends me. He was speaking to people who lost family members and telling them they should not seek justice by pursuing those who supported the attack! An officer and a genitalmen indeed…

"anarchist websites"? They're legal my friend, you're a censor... Plain and simple.

You're ranting about racists dragging people behind trucks, but wasn't the mass murder in DC (Malvo?) "African American?" Didn't he kill in cold blood other "African Americans"? Why do you think he did that? Probably the confederate battle flag, right? Surely if we outlawed it, those pinheads wouldn’t have murdered that poor man in Texas, and Malvo wouldn’t have killed his own kind, just white people. What flag would have made him do that? Should we outlaw that one too?

I fear people like you. Honestly I do. You think your views are helpful, but by attempting to "control" what is allowable by virtue of who it offends, you're no different than the Taliban forcing women to wear berkas (sp) because OMG!! YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO SEE A WOMANS FACE IN PUBLIC!! THAT WOULD BE LUDE!! Well guess what dude, they think "JUST like you". They're saving all of their neighbors from the trauma of seeing a woman’s face in public. Freedom is free man! That means, sometimes people are offended! Guess what, if you don't like something, you don't have do look at it. Turn the channel, move, put your fingers in your ears and go LELELALALOLO like Jim Carey in Dumb and dumber, look away, do SOMETHING! Just don't try to restrict other's freedoms. Despite how you try to disguise it, this is EXACTLY what you are proposing...
xaigoxx
23 years ago
Wow, this is why every country hates us. Hates the US, hates Americans, and hates people like you. We're all angry about the 9/11 attacks yet we still bully, threaten, blackmail, and BS other countries because we are the world's only superpower. America has proud citizens and then the cocky ones that make people hate us... and thats you. Every country has their own customs and way of living... so respect that.

Fear me? I fear you. I fear those that think gun control is bad and responsibility is wrong. I fear you, because of your ignorance and arrogance for something you don't quite understand. The black man was killed by white hate groups in Texas... and yes they wouldve done it anyway. But... if we didnt allow these groups to make websites showing others who, WOULD NEVER HAVE HAD THE CHANCE TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE, methods of making weapons and hating others based on ignorance and stupidity. Child Porn is against the law in the US, however, those websites can be based in other countries and view in this country. NOT ONLY THAT, kidde pictures before the 1990's are considered vintage and allowed to be "collected".

I fear you because you don't believe that prevention is important and that only punishment and action after the fact is important. Gun Control? slowly eliminate more dangerous guns from the public and in several years, it will be much better. Hate? Limit their influence and it will NOT reach the weak minded and young across the world and nation. I fear arrogant people like you who think this country is invincible.
xaigoxx
23 years ago
True freedom is anarchy robby. We live in a gov't controlled country. Can you go murder and rape someone? NO.. because you dont have the freedom to. We have freedom yes, but its the freedom our gov't gives us.

BTW, the right to bear arms was not modified officially, but through laws it was modified. This style of modification as been used for several admenments in our Constitution.
Robby
23 years ago
You're ignorance speaks volumes... I need nothing more than to quote you, "but its the freedom our gov't gives us." Anyone who thinks freedom comes from the government obviously has no knowledge of the constitution or what this country stands for. That may be how they do things where you're from... And oh, btw, yes, by all means, fear me and other freedom loving americans like me.
jdrabinski
23 years ago
I've spent a lot of time in the South, love a lot of things about the South, but this flag thing is a real embarrassment. What defenders of the flag don't seem to get (or maybe have ambivalent feelings about) is that the flag was flown in defense of slavery. SLAVERY. How could you possibly defend a flag that represented states defending that right?

If you were african-american, would you trust someone with a confederate flag on their home, body, or car? Don't lie. Of course you wouldn't. If you would, you'd be a fool.

The other 'myth' surrounding the confederate flag is that it had always stood for 'southern pride' (white southern pride only, by the way...there are A LOT of black people in the south, so it isn't really southern pride if it doesn't also represent them). The flag had disappeared from public consciousness, but was rehabilitated as a symbol of resistance to the civil rights movement. Read this, noting the fact that it only appeared in S. Carolina in 1962:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june00/flag.html 

Flying or displaying that flag links you to two disgusting moments of our nation's history: slavery and segregation. Who would want to find themselves connected to that? Pull your head out of the sand.

John
usahog
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23 years ago
John:(The other 'myth' surrounding the confederate flag is that it had always stood for 'southern pride' (white southern pride only, by the way...there are A LOT of black people in the south, so it isn't really southern pride if it doesn't also represent them)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18621-2003Feb16.html 
I Beg to Differ... You being a Professor even with that 8.0 grade average and this is how you view the history of this Nation?
Gen Lee himself when he surrendered his men and himself to the North Said, I Have Fought against the people of the North because I believed they were seeking to wrest from the south its dearest rights. bitter or vindictive feelings, And I have never seen the day when I did not pray for them. Robert E. Lee

John, I will show you the Fact of why the Civil War Happened... Slavery was a mild Issue , while I gather the Fact to post to you... you can read the Above Link I posted here... so you can see for your Own Eye's a couple of modern day Proud Black Men in Confederate Uniforms... a Heritage they say there passed down from there Family Generation of fighting for the South...
and I'm still waiting for a reply on your "God and War" thread your so proud of....

Hog
usahog
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23 years ago
NAACP ...... SpiFFffffffffff

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/sots.htm 

Jessy Jackson LMAO!!!!!!

Hog
usahog
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23 years ago
Civil War: Causes and Results


"Of the American Civil War it may safely be asserted that there was a single cause, slavery," wrote historian James Ford Rhodes in 1913. Although historians today would not put it quite so starkly, Rhodes''s basic point remains valid.

In the decades since 1913 various schools of historiography have advanced other interpretations of the war''s causes. The progressive historians emphasized the widening economic gulf between the North and South. Cultural and social historians stressed the contrast between the civilizations and values of the two regions. But revisionist historians denied the existence of any fundamental economic or social conflicts. They pointed instead to self-serving politicians who created and then exploited the false issue of slavery''s expansion into new territories to whip up sectional passions and get themselves elected to office.

Few historians today subscribe to either the progressive or the revisionist interpretation in unalloyed form. To be sure, conflicts of interest occurred between the agricultural South and the industrializing North. But issues like tariffs, banks, and land grants divided parties and interest groups more than they did North and South. The South in the 1840s and 1850s had its advocates of industrialization and protective tariffs, just as the North had its millions of farmers and its low-tariff, antibank Democratic majority in many states. The Civil War was not fought over the issue of tariff or of industrialization or of land grants. Nor was it a consequence of false issues invented by demagogues. It was fought over profound, intractable problems that Americans on both sides believed went to the heart of their society and its future.

In this sense the "two civilizations" thesis comes closest to the mark. As a lawyer in Savannah, Georgia, expressed it in 1860, "in this country have arisen two races [i.e., Northerners and Southerners] which, although claiming a common parentage, have been so entirely separated by climate, by morals, by religion, and by estimates so totally opposite to all that constitutes honor, truth, and manliness, that they cannot longer exist under the same government." What lay at the root of this separation? Slavery. It was the sole institution not shared by North and South. The peculiar institution defined the South. "On the subject of slavery," declared the Charleston Mercury in 1858, "the North and South ... are not only two Peoples, but they are rival, hostile Peoples."

Two of the North''s foremost political leaders echoed this point in the same year. Slavery and freedom, said Senator William H. Seward of New York, are "more than incongruous - they are incompatible." The collision between them "is an irrepressible conflict between opposing and enduring forces, and it means that the United States must and will, sooner or later, become either entirely a slaveholding nation, or entirely a free-labor nation." Abraham Lincoln, in a famous speech, declared that "]a house divided against itself cannot stand.[ I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free."

But why could it not so endure? After all, in 1858 it had done so for seventy years. To be sure, slavery had been a source of contention at the Constitutional Convention, at the time of Missouri''s admission into the Union in 1821, in the debates between abolitionists and slavery''s defenders especially in the 1830s, at the time of Texas''s admission as a state in 1845 and the subsequent war with Mexico, and on numerous other occasions. But compromises palliated these conflicts; the Republic endured. What made the rhetoric of 1858 different? What split the Republic in 1861? The answer lies mainly in the schism generated by the expansion of slavery.

The Missouri Compromise of 1820 had seemed to settle this matter by dividing the territory acquired in the Louisiana Purchase between slavery and freedom at the latitude of 36°30 (with Missouri as a slave-state exception north of that line). But the conquest from Mexico of vast new regions in the Southwest following the annexation of Texas as a slave state reopened the question in 1846. With the support of nearly all Northern congressmen, the House of Representatives passed over unanimous Southern opposition the Wilmot Proviso stating that slavery should be excluded from all territory acquired by the Mexican War. Southern strength in the Senate was sufficient to defeat the proviso there. And that was the point. With the Union comprising fifteen free states and fifteen slave states in 1848, the South could block in the Senate any measures threatening slavery. But if only free states were to be admitted in the future, the South would eventually become a helpless minority in all branches of government. Slavery would be doomed by Northern hostility.

What explained the growing Northern hostility to slavery? Since 1831 the militant phase of the abolitionist movement had crusaded against bondage as unchristian, immoral, and a violation of the republican principle of equality on which the nation had been founded. The fact that this land of liberty had become the world''s largest slaveholding nation seemed a shameful anomaly to an increasing number of Northerners. "The monstrous injustice of slavery," said Lincoln in 1854, "deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world - enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites." Slavery degraded not only the slaves, argued Northerners opposed to its expansion, by demeaning the dignity of labor and dragging down the wages of all workers; it also degraded free people who owned no slaves. If slavery goes into the territories, declared abolitionists, "the free labor of all the states will not.... If the free labor of the states goes there, the slave labor of the southern states will not, and in a few years the country will teem with an active and energetic population." The contest over expansion of slavery into the territories thus became a contest over the future of America, for these territories held the balance of power between slavery and freedom.

The South accepted the gauntlet flung down by the Free-Soil movement. Proslavery advocates countered that the bondage of blacks was the basis of liberty for whites. Slavery elevated all whites to an equality of status and dignity by confining menial labor and caste subordination to blacks. "If slaves are freed," said Southerners, whites "will become menials. We will lose every right and liberty which belongs to the name of freemen." The fear that emancipation would degrade whites to the level of black slaves explains why most of the Southern whites who owned no slaves (70 percent of all whites) supported the institution. They agreed with slave owners that slavery must be allowed in the territories, for such expansion might increase their own chances of acquiring slaves.

This question became the dominant political issue of the 1850s. Southerners led several filibustering expeditions into Cuba, Mexico, and Nicaragua to try to gain control of these regions in order to annex them to the United States as slave states. Southern Democrats used their domination of the party, which in turn controlled the federal government during most of the decade, to make annexation of Cuba a party policy (but Spain refused to sell its colony). Southern Democrats and their Northern allies passed the Kansas-Nebraska Act in 1854, which repealed the Missouri Compromise''s restriction on slavery north of 36°30 in Louisiana Purchase territories. The outraged Northern response led to the founding of the Republican party as a coalition of Free-Soilers, Northern Whigs, and those Northern Democrats who were fed up with Southern domination of their party. Tensions were exacerbated in 1857 when the Southern-dominated Supreme Court handed down its Dred Scott decision, which declared slavery legal in all territories. During the remainder of the decade, the territory of Kansas echoed with the gunfire of strife between pro- and antislavery settlers. Out of the Kansas conflict came John Brown with his vision of a holy war to free the slaves, which culminated with his attack on Harpers Ferry, Virginia, in 1859.

These events were flash points in the increasing polarization of North and South over slavery. When Lincoln won the presidential election in 1860 without winning a single electoral vote and with scarcely any popular votes in the slave states, Southerners knew they had lost control of the government. A Northern antislavery party would dominate the future. Slavery was doomed if the South remained in the Union. So seven slave states seceded (followed by four more after the firing on Fort Sumter) and formed the Confederate States of America.

Still, that did not inevitably mean war. If the new Lincoln administration and the Northern people had been willing to accept secession, the two halves of the former United States might have coexisted in an uneasy peace. But most Northerners were not willing to tolerate the dismemberment of the United States. This would create a fatal precedent whereby "any minority [would] have the right to break up the Government at pleasure," declared Northern newspapers and political leaders. The government would become "a rope of sand" and "our thirty-three States may resolve themselves into as many petty, jarring, and hostile republics.... Our example for more than eighty years would not only be lost, but it would be quoted as a conclusive proof that man is unfit for self-government."

Lincoln intended to maintain the federal garrison at Fort Sumter in Charleston Bay as a symbol of national sovereignty in the Confederate states, in the hope that a reaction toward Unionism in those states would eventually bring them back. To forestall this happening, the Confederate army attacked Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861. This was the spark that ignited four years of war in which at least 620,000 American soldiers lost their lives - nearly as many as in all the other wars this country has fought combined. The destruction wrought in the South by the Civil War was devastating. It killed one-quarter of the Confederacy''s white men of military age and destroyed two-fifths of Southern livestock, half of the farm machinery and a similar proportion of factories and railroads, and two-thirds of Southern wealth. The Civil War was the great trauma and tragedy of American history.

But it was also a great triumph of nationalism and freedom. The war resolved the two fundamental problems left unresolved by the Revolution of 1776, problems that had preoccupied the country for four score and nine years down to 1865. The first was the question whether this fragile republic would survive in a world of monarchs and emperors and dictators or would follow the example of most republics through history (including many in the nineteenth century) and collapse into tyranny or fragment in a dreary succession of revolutions and civil wars. Northern victory in the Civil War settled that question: the United States would survive as a single nation with a republican form of government. Since 1865 no state or region has tried to secede. The second problem left unresolved by the Revolution was slavery, which had divided the country from the beginning. The Civil War abolished the institution and freed 4 million slaves. What still remained unresolved in 1865 were the meaning and dimensions of that freedom - issues that continue to concern Americans today.

Slavery was the Final Straw to lead to the secession and the Beginning of the Civil War...

http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-bin/frameit2.cgi?p=%2Fperl%2Fsearch.pl&word=Civil+War&x=19&y=10 

Hog

btw this Flag is a symbol of History of the United States and the People who fought for the Freedoms there of.. either North Or South...
Next we will be digging up Arlington Cemetary because that was Gen. Lee's Homeplace and the NAACP feel's it isn't proper to keep it a monument because it's infringing on somebody's rights....
Let History Remain as just that!!!!!
there is no way to Place Political Correctness to the events of History that took Place at that time...
"In otherwords Changing events to suit the times... Not Going to Happen!!!!!

Hog
jdrabinski
23 years ago
'the south's dearest rights'...

read: the right to own slaves.

end of story.

As for african-americans fighting for the South. Two things: they were slaves and, well, they were slaves. I see that as a very, very sad thing, black people fighting to maintain the institution of slavery. How do you see it?

John

ps: hog, you aren't willing to do the box pass? I am disappointed. Thought you'd be down for some good will. Whatever.
usahog
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23 years ago
See it? as in Modern day like the two Gentlemen in the article I posted? or if I was a Southern Plantation Owner in the days of there Grandfathers? Or I was sitting on the Battle Field right next to Gen Grant, And Seeing these Men in Confederate Uniform advancing towards Union Soldiers?

How do you mean John? Please Elaberate

Hog
southernsupreme
23 years ago
A group of individuals resisting an oppressive federal force h@ll bent on controlling/stealing the economic resources that the southern states had developed.

It was a foreshadowing of the current globalization that has put the average American worker out of $15-$25 per hour job to working 2 full time lower paying jobs.

Dont start with the slavery stuff..it happened all through out history, still goes on in many nations that our federal government gives favored nation trading status to.

where is the "diversity" for me?? Im MLK'd, Kwanza'd, Black history month'd, and affirmative actioned'd to death.

Give me a break!!!

If the stars and bars offend you.. get over it!!

I am offended all day long because I am a true minority , A conservative, white (european-american),who works full time and provides for his family with out government assistance, hetero sexual, Christian male.







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