'don't start with the slavery stuff'...

I try to be intense, but polite. But this is over the top and I have to respond in kind. You are a moron. Let me repeat: you are a moron. A moronic moron. The 'slavery stuff' was the greatest tragedy in this nation's history and we should be saddened by its memory. Your nonchalance about it, and this bull**** about being mlk'd to death, etc., shows me that you are no doubt a racist. That was a pathetic post.

You are a minority? What could that possibly mean? Get over yourself. You probably complain that liberals whine, then I read this bull****. You are whining about being a minority, but just about everyone in the congress and the executive branch is EXACTLY that.

Go back to the 19th century. You're exactly the type keeping this country down.

Exactly. How can you consider yourself a "minority"?
-----

Robby, get educated. You're a racist and you don't even know it. You're acting like I'm an American hating, censorship loving extremist. I love this country as much or if not more than you. I'd die and I live for this country. HOwever, you don't seem to grasp the basic concepts of prejudice and the thin line between "freedom" and anarchy. You don't seem to understand that the Constitution signed over 200+ years ago was practiced and interpreted differently than today. "Freedom" = what the Constitution and the laws of the land allow. Do you understand now, why you dont have the "freedom" to run around naked in your town beating senior citizens? Do you understand now, why you don't have the freedom to threaten anyone (even you do have freedom of speech and expression right?), or buy an AK-47 or even armor piercing bullets? It's because the laws of the land took away your freedom to. We, as Americans, do have more freedom than any other country. However, be realistic. You seem to be an idealistic living in a social bubble. I don't know if you live in a town with 27 people or in the country by yourself... but open your eyes. I'm not for censorship and taking away American Freedom. I'm for common sense. You are either an anarchist or a delusioned idealist racist.

xaigoxx and JDR,

There are those that know not, and know that they know not, they are to be educated.

There are those that know and know not that they know, they are to be enlightened.

There are those that know and know that they know, they are to be followed.

Finally, there are those that know not and know not that they know not. They are to be shunned. You fall in to this category...

Either you two are blithering idiots, or you're simply trying to get folks stired up. I'm hoping for your sake it's the later.

Did you ever see back to the future? Where the big guy is banging on McFly's head saying, "HELLO McFLY!!?? IS ANYBODY IN THERE???" Listen up. I don't fly the flag. And, btw, it doesn't offend me. However, other things do offend me (many things), but I don't run around in my poo poo undies like you whiners decrying the rights of others to, a) worship, b) speak, c) assemble, etc... (note this is the first amendment folks) based solely on the fact that I'm "offended".

Ever hear of the Islamic Nation? Lewis Faracon? And his minions? Preaching about white people, and Jews? Their hatred is not disguised (like your ignorance). I’m offended by MUCH of what they say. Do I think they should not be allowed to say it? No.

I'm offended by farting, so let's make it illegal in public? Xaigoxx, I am offended by you, should you be made illegal? (I may be persuaded to come off my doctrine on this one and agree YES) Why is it that just because someone espouses someone’s right to be offensive, you two morons immediately associate that individual with any possible negative implication associated with said offensive behavior? Are you really that stupid? No, come-on, you're just trying to stir things up right? Say is isn’t so, that you "Know not and know not that you know not..."

A final illustration of your stupidity, I’m a manager for a fortune 50 company. I’ve had much training about what is and is not discrimination, harassment, etc… It is indeed a fact that the ONLY group of people whom you may legally discriminate against is white men who are not disabled, not gay, etc… In other words, me.

P.S., do you still believe your freedom comes from the government? MORON!!

No, Robby, I am not an idiot. And I am not just 'offended' out of stupidity. Let me tell you why.

I am white, my wife is black, and our soon-to-be kid (september!) will (obviously) be bi-racial. When I see the confederate flag flown, I see a number of things. The battle flag under which defense of slavery--the enslavement of my wife's ancestors--was fought. That isn't abstract to me.

Also, I see people flying the flag or having it on an emblem of some sort. Those people scare the **** out of me. When I am with my wife, do you blame me for fearing they'll hurl racial taunts at her, threaten me with violence? She has a PhD, teaches at a prestigious college, yet these people will threaten us and insult her. You know it is true. Don't tell me to grow thicker skin. That **** ain't my fault, and it ain't her fault. I refuse to be responsible for it. I see people who will stare at, insult, and threaten my child. Do you blame me? Or do you think that is a reasonable fear? If you were in an interracial relationship and had a biracial child, would you feel safe around people displaying the confederate flag?

I am not an idiot. You should take my points, and those of xaigoxx, more seriously.

I recall that xaigoxx said he is asian-american. You should listen to his experience. In relation to the flag, it is not an abstract argument for him. He lives a different relation to it, one that is unarguably under threat from it's display.

I gather from his remarks, and add my own from my marriage and soon-to-be child experience, that the flag actually feels threatening. And I don't think anybody would dispute the rationality of this fear.

John

John, congrats on your upcoming child. I understand your concerns, however that doesn't change the facts. Do you think that because you feel threatened, people should not be allowed to fly a confederate battle emblem? Applying the same logic, could I also request that members of Feracon's (sp) organization not be allowed to display their symbols because it makes me feel threatened? If so, who decides what’s offensive and therefore what should be stricken? Isn’t this the very same type of mob mentality that foments discrimination to begin with? I.e., more people obviously agreed that slavery was OK at some point in our history, did that make it right? If more people agree that some folks should not be allowed to display a flag, does that make it right?

Oh btw, I lived in Hawaii in the 70s. Whites were approximately 6% of the population and there was blatant discrimination and open hatred based solely on the fact that we were white. I had many friends who were beaten bloody for no other reason than their skin color. So please don't be fooled in to the false assumption that prejudice is only the domain of the white race. It happens across the board… It just seems that the only time it’s roundly condemned is when it’s white vs. anyone else. Please do not mistake this for support of bigotry, it is not. I’m just pointing out the dirty little secret of bigotry, lot’s of folks do it, but for some reason, whites are singled out for it. I never hear talk of whites being targets of racial hatred and I’ve personally experienced it.

Robby,

I don't support an actual legal ban on the confederate flag. Just like I don't want that on the swastika. However, I'd feel better about our society if people took the symbolic and existential effect of the flag (which I tried to outline above) seriously, just as we would the swastika. That is, I wish there was some shame about the flag and what it represents (if not in whole, in very large part...defense of the enslavement of innocent men, women, and children) and a sense that that part of our history is to be mournfully regretted.

Then I would feel like displaying the flag was like displaying the swastika: something pretty marginal and radical, something that one wouldn't do AT THE STATEHOUSE!

To be completely honest, I feel the swastika and confederate flag have a serious family resemblance: both represent an era of murderous and tortuous intolerance. Sure, there were 'other issues' in the South, but there were also 'other issues' in Nazi Germany. The problem is that slavery and concentration camps trump those other issues due to their intense, moral weight.

So I don't propose a legal ban. I do, however, propose that we criticize and shame those people who do display it. It recalls a horrific, shameful past in this country and it creates a space where my wife, kid, and I could never, ever feel welcome or comfortable. You can't blame us for that, can you?

This is a free country. That means you are free to look like an idiot and fly the flag. That is why I don't support a legal ban on private ownership. However, that also means that my family should feel free to go wherever (excluding private property) without clear and distinct signs of hostility. Can you imagine what it would feel like to go with my wife and kid to tour a southern statehouse, and then see the confederate flag? What would I say to my kid when she asks 'what does that represent'? The answer wouldn't make my kid feel very welcome, would it? And we are talking about an open public space...part of a 'free' country means that we are all free to go without severe intimidation or discomfort.

I take it very seriously when I see a symbol that rallied defense of the enslavement of my wife's wholly innocent ancestors. I love her more than my own life. I love our baby (though still a fetus!) more than that. And I just can't understand why anyone, save for the racists, would defend a symbol that recalls to my family's mind enslavement, lynching, rape, murder, torture, and so on. Let's not smooth over that part of our history. It was unspeakably violent.

Don't underestimate the intimidation effect of the confederate flag. If you are white, you can just look at it and shrug it off. It is just a curiosity. I was like that for years, until I met my wife and encountered the world differently. I had a lot to learn, and I've learned a lot. If you are non-white, or, like me, the father of a biracial child, you can't shrug it off. It speaks clearly: we hate you, we don't want you here, we very well may direct violence (word or deed) toward you. And we can all agree (I hope) that people who send that message should be criticized and shamed. So I am saying we should include their symbols in that criticism.

John

Wow,, some thread! I will state one more time, I LOVE the STARS and STRIPES, red , whit and blue of the American Flag!

That is the flag I proudly fly at my home! To me it symbolizes Freedom and Democracy and a way of life, that sometimes we may disagree, but we are all Americans!

Now, lets end this mess in the Middle East! God Bless America, God Bless our President and God Bless our Military men and women!

Charlie

John, what if you're a native American? And offended by the Stars and Stripes? We used Eminent Domain as an excuse to commit unspeakable atrocities on the Indians and our flag is surely a stark reminder of this. Ban it? It is offensive to some. What do the native American’s tell their children when they have to tour your state house?

The fact remains that what you’re speaking to is your personal perspective. It is poignant, and difficult to argue when viewed from your perspective. However, others have other perspective. I don’t ask that you agree with their perspective or with mine, just that it is understood that we’re all different and as a direct result of our diverse background, we perceive the world and everything in it uniquely. Love yourself, love your wife and child, respect diversity, even if it is offensive, it’s peoples right to believe however they belive.

There’s a national endowment for the arts. One would think that I support this whole heartedly since I’m “well endowed”. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They paid some guy 10,000 bux to put a crucifix in a jar and piss in it. That’s my tax dollars. I don’t think they should be spent for that. I’m personally repulsed by the fact that he even did it. But, does that mean he shouldn’t have the right to do so?

How about the Jews? The Pope could arguably be accused of inaction in the holocaust. So what should a Jew think when they see a cross? Contempt? Should people who display crosses be ridiculed? The problem is, it’s a slippery slope… Once you start down it, i.e., “no one should ever fly the confederate flag because it’s offensive” Not illegal, just evocative of harsh criticism.

So then you’re happy, then it begins, then everyone else puts in their two cents, and before you know it, there you are, on the couch, wrapped up tight in your body condom, laying next to xaigoxx. Safe yes, maybe even happy, but it’s not for me.

Robby,

You know, you completely miss the point. The parallel for Jews is not the Pope or the crucifix. It is the swastika.

I have no desire for a body condom, as you suggest. However, and you just don't see this, the confederate flag (like the swastika...what is the difference, really?) is an overt act of hostility.

Therein lies the difference. And therein lies the resistance to your 'slippery slope' argument, I think.

I can't for the life of me understand why someone would embrace a symbol linked to something as grotesque as slavery. I really can't. You can tell me it is about a million other things, but at the center of it all is the institution of slavery. If you think slavery was wrong, then you refuse its symbols. Pure and simple.

John

We have come become developed into a nation of Political Correctness, for better or worse! I say for worse, because you never know what whacko group you may offend with an advertisement or public statement!

I could see where Robby's argument about the American Indians would carry as much weight as any of these other whinings and mewlings about Political Correctness!

We need to drop the PI thought process in our media and educational system! I see where Mother's day has been banned by a Private school in New York City because it "offends" same sex parents! Big deal.....live with it!

Charlie

Charlie,

Just to clarify: you aren't putting slavery on par with Mother's Day, right? Those differences are important. I don't think you can chalk the confederate flag controversy up to PI stuff. It is a very real sense of intimidation and threat. Believe me. I feel it.

Also, on the Native American thing...two things. First, I don't know of any Native American group voicing this concern. So it seems a non-sequitur. Second, Native Americans, in vast numbers, live on autonomous lands. Reservations are nations-with-a-nation. There is no such thing for African-Americans.

Not really the same thing. "Fallacy of equivocation" is the logical term for this, fyi.

John

hahaha (truly laughing now John). You're a character, I'll give you that much. You've placed me in the unenviable position of defending slavery! Talk about equivocation!! I'm NOT defending slavery! I'm NOT defending any symbols you may find offensive. What I am doing is saying what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Are you quite certain there are no Native Americans offended by the flag? Are you quite certain there are no African Americans who proclaim themselves as "separatists" seeking their own nation? Dude, you're right!! “for you and others who agree with you”, more power to you. But you can't force your square peg in to someone else's round hole (not that there’s anything wrong with that) because it suits your agenda.

Total Tunnel Vision or TTV Syndrome....

It is Politically Correct that is the Problem...
Thats why they Keep Re-Writing our History books and wanting to remove all the Facts from events that took place in this nation and around this world to suit what would fit into the Correctness for society today...
Leave it Be...
History is just what it says H I S T O R Y... the way it Happened when it Happened

the American Indian Tragidy is the next post

and Robby my Hat is off to you Sir.
Diveristy is something everyone needs to be aware of and practice!!!!

Hog

Thanks Hog, and JDR, please, I sincerely hope I have not offended you. It was not my intent. I truly do enjoy debating you though 🙂 very stimulating.

Robby,

I appreciate the remark there. I am tired, though, and just can't do this one anymore. This flag symbolizes the most unspeakable things about my wife's ancestors (rape, lynching, beatings, death), and I hope (wonder?) if you can imagine the fear the flag puts in my heart for her and our soon-to-be child.

If that is 'political correctness,' then I can only suggest that you take a walk in my shoes, or her shoes, or our child's shoes. Then you'd see it is not about 'being sensitive'; it's about a whole lot more. How would you feel about the flag if your partner was black, if your child was biracial? Would it scare the **** out of you if a couple of men drove up in a truck with that flag on it? Tell the truth.

If you fly or otherwise sport the confederate flag, you can pretty much forget about having black friends. Or just about any non-white friends. That makes me sad, and I can't really understand--try as I may--why one would defend a symbol like that.

I'll read the ongoing discussion of this. But I am not sure I have the heart to contribute. This flag is a personal affront and act of hostility toward me and the people I love most in this world. It pisses me off to no end to hear this deep feeling written off as 'PC.' If you think that, then you just don't understand.

Too bad, actually, because you (Robby) are one of the very few I've debated here that showed me respect. I try to argue respectfully. I hope I have.

John

Does C-Bid sell body condoms?

jdrabinski

'don't start with the slavery stuff'...
(MANY PEOPE THINK THAT WAS THE ONLY REASON FOR THE WAR, IT WAS NOT,LOOK AT THE FED RESERVE, WTO,NATO, ECT, SAME PRINCIPAL AT WORK , TOTAL CONTROL)

I try to be intense, but polite. But this is over the top and I have to respond in kind. You are a moron. Let me repeat: you are a moron. A moronic moron.
(NOT NICE TO SAY AT ALL)
The 'slavery stuff' was the greatest tragedy in this nation's history and we should be saddened by its memory.
( IT WAS A TRAGEDY, NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPNED, BUT IT WAS MANY YEARS AGO, YOU RESPOND AS IF IT WERE LAST WEEK,WE HAVE LEARNED FROM THAT MISTAKE)
Your nonchalance about it, and this bull**** about being mlk'd to death, etc., shows me that you are no doubt a racist.
(NOT NONCHALANT, JUST NOT OVER EMOTIONAL, IT WAS THE PAST,I AM CONCERNED WITH THE RIGHT NOW AND THE FUTURE..
I BELIEVE EVERY ONE SHOULD RECEIVE EQUAL TREATMENT,NOT SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR ANY REASON, SPECIAL HOLIDAYS AND AWARD SHOWS BASED ON RACE ARE ALL THE RAGE.. HOW WOULD "THE WHITE AWARDS" GO OVER : ) NOT WELL AT ALL,THAT SAYS ALOT ABOUT OUR CURRENT CULTURE AND THE IMPLIED IDEA THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BAD. , ANY DECISION MADE BASED ON 'RACE ONLY' IS A BAD THING, IF WE ARE ALL EQUAL IT SHOULD BE JUST THAT NO EXCEPTIONS, ANY THING ELSE IS TRULY RACISM)
That was a pathetic post.
(I TAKE THE 1ST)

You are a minority? What could that possibly mean?
(EMPLOYED, WHITE HETERO-SEXUAL MALES ARE THE ONLY GROUP OF PEOPLE I AM AWARE OF THAT DO NOT BENEFIT FROM SOME SPECIAL GOVERNMENT/SOCIAL LAWS OR PROGRAMS)
Get over yourself. You probably complain that liberals whine, then I read this bull****.
(YOU ARE MAKING AN ASSUMPTION)
You are whining about being a minority, but just about everyone in the congress and the executive branch is EXACTLY that.
(NOT SURE WHAT YOU POINT IS THERE, IF YOU MEAN WE HAVE RACIAL MINORITYS IN CONGRESS, YES WE DO AND THAT IS A GOOD THING)

Go back to the 19th century.
(CANT)
You're exactly the type keeping this country down.
(BLAME IT ALL ON ME , THATS OK : ), YOUR LAST STATEMENT , YOU BLAME ME, EVERY ONE IS BLAMING SOME ONE ELSE. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO INDIVIDUAL ACCONTABILITY? YOU CAN SEE FROM THE MANY POST ON THIS SUBJECT THAT THERE MAY BE MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAN PEOPLE LIKE ME, AND MAJORITY RULES, IF THIS COUNTRY IS "KEPT DOWN" THE MAJORITY OF WHOM YOU SEEM TO PART OF MUST BE HOLDING US THERE.

MY TOTAL INTENT WAS.. EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL, NO SPECIAL RIGHTS FOR ANY ONE...

jdrabinski :

Sorry, my message was sent before I was done, sorry if I stressed you out, I love a good debate, and your passion inspire me to reply, I wish you and yours the best.
Tony

heh, body condoms 🙂

It is said; if you disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes.

Afterwards, if you still disagree, it's OK, because you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.