i have sat on my hands to try and keep from being drawn into this gaggle......

i think i'll put my hands back where they were, as everyone knows how i feel..........or at least i think they do.....

either way, a "fruitless" discussion

Not all opponents of abortion are bible thumpers. Although I am Catholic, my feelings about abortion are more related to biology than they are to religious beliefs.

Conversely, I realize that pro choice folks do not want abortion to become a means of birth control.

It's obvious that an abortion is a heinous act. That's why I'm vocal about my opposition, and I honestly feel that the word "choice" is trumpeted like some kind of battle cry.

It may be a choice, but it's a far cry from a proud stance.

It needs to remain an option. It just shouldn't be a desirable one.

If you think about what is taking place, it's shameful.

But don't ask me. I'm a man.

Ask Norma McCorvey.

She's the Roe, of Roe v Wade.

And she's against abortion...

=cexshun

=Date: 01/26/2005  01:16 PM  

=

=Can someone provide any numbers on this "abortion is birth control" =phenomenon that people are so afraid of? I think it's being greatly =exagerated. 

REASONS FOR ABORTIONS: COMPILED ESTIMATES

rape

0.25 % (0.1-1 😵

incest

0.03 % (~0.1 😵

physical life of mother

0.2 % (0.1-0.3 😵

physical health of mother

1.0 % (0.1-3 😵

fetal health

0.4 % (0.1-1.0 😵

mental health of mother

depends on criterion (0.1-17 😵

"personal choice"

--too young/immature/not ready for responsibility (32 😵

--economic (21-28 😵

--to avoid adjusting life (16 😵

--mother single or in poor relationship (12-13 😵

--enough children already (4-8 😵

98% (78-99 😵

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html 

I also found several pro-life & pro-choice sites that cite the following journal article:

"Why Do Women Have Abortions?," by JD Forrest and A. Torres, Family

Planning Perspectives 20(4):169-176, 1988

http://www.agi-usa.org/journals/fpp_archive.html 

-Wolfy

Mrs. Usahog,

Have you ever heard of Dr. Gianna Beretta Molla? I think you might be interested in reading about her.

-Wolfy

Thanks Wolfy..

I also cannot see where a person would think for a second to have an abortion and then yrs later begin having children and think that their first child would be of the same sex as the fetus they Abandonded?? I've heard this talk with other couples through-out my raising of kids??

My brother and his ex-wife lost their first Son at birth...Toximua (sp) and later went on to have 4 other children... I know the emotional distraught the loss brought to both of them especially her... I see my Nephew and on occassions wonder what their other son would have been doing at this point and time when I see him??

3 Beautiful children I helped bring into this world and still helping getting them through life... my ex-wifes father told her she was going to get an abortion... no if's and or buts about it... my daughter now 22 is doing great in college and in life... at 17 my ex-wife became pregenent with my daughter... from that time forward I was elbows and **** working to make a living for my family... there are allot of men out there who also should be a part of say so... but as pointed out.. they do not have a choice in the matter...

My sister got preg. when she was 15.. she gave her baby up for adoption and regrets the loss everyday.. she is fortunate that the parents who adopted keep in touch with them often and always had...my neice will be graduating high school this coming year... I've only got to meet her once... but she is grown and will have a great future ahead of her...

Hog

"who screamed from the mountain tops about unborn rights, yet were complete SOBs to the angels they brought into this world.....hypocracy at its finest"

Sonny... my kids will tell you their dad was a prick while they were growing up???

"Threadjack On"

My Step Daughter at 15, calls me Hitler with my rules???

I told her when her mom and I got married and she started living with us... I'll love you just like I do my own kids.. and I do.. but I do not cut her any slack and when she first moved up here she was running with the wrong kids who were trouble and trouble makers

I weeded them out.. I point blank to her these Kids are not allowed over at this house PERIOD.. these kids are all in trouble with school and with life (drugs) and other crap... she has seen and talked with her mom about these kids... just last summer she and one of these friends of her's were going to be sleeping over at her friends...well it turned out that wasn't what happened and my step daughter almost ended up raped... I wont go any further on that because I don't want Mrs. Hog to be upset with me for even saying anything.. needless to say God stepped in and things changed... it was an eye opener for our daughter... friends she thought she could trust had set her up for something so horrific... I can stand on a mountian top and scream to high heavens.... my step daughter who I am silently so damn proud of is on the honor roll and I think she will be bringing home straight A's this next report card?? if not close... she's a cheer leader and she's involved in school functions and told the Mrs. and I she's not moving anywhere until she graduates high school...2 yrs... she changed allot but we/ the Mrs. and I both had been going through trials with her... we're not done raising her Yet!!! but I think we may have made it over one of them hills?? she's got a BF who just finished school 19, and we all know about the hormones thing...she talks about them two getting married etc... his parents love her because he has stayed out of trouble since they've been dating... I don't and wont allow her in his car and they can see each other at events... her mom is the good cop.. I'm the bad one.. as long as she keeps communication with her mother thats Great... and I can still tell it like I see it... once he "scores" he'll dump her like a hot potato...

Open lines of communication is the key issue...but it takes work to keep those lines open all the time... thats what parents jobs in life are...

I'll get down off my soapbox and tuck away my bible now

"Threadjack Off"

Hog

Hog,

You're doing all the right things. I can tell you from experience that what you went through with your daughter was just one of many hills you'll have to climb. My daughter is 23 and getting married this August, my son is 20, and it's a full time job taking care of them!! It also takes 2, like you said, good cop, bad cop...they will appreciate the effort in the end! Both my kids are excellent adults!

Threadjack off*****

Here is a good example for everyone...for or against!

If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already,

three who were deaf, two who were blind,

one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend

that she have an abortion?

If you said yes, you

just killed Beethoven.

well put, tailgator! I think that statement is my view as well.

Russ, whether or not your kids thought is was fun being raised by you is irrelevant......sometimes doing the right thing as a parent is not exactly the most popular thing to do......that was my sentiment.

See, if my father was strict and exercised tough love to make me a better person and to protect me, then he did the right thing. However, he was down right mean, hateful and consistently cheated on my mother and abandoned his family several times.......both perspectives could be seen as miserable to grow up in, yet one is honorable and loving, the other is not.

BTW, from what little insight i have of you, you seem to be the honorable one.

Hup, although I not pro-abortion, the Beethoven story is not true. He had younger brothers and sisters. His mother did not have syphilis. She did contract tuberculosis.

Beethoven's mom was a slut... haha

hup, good analogy.......however, many an honorable woman had STDs in those days due to their husband's extra-curriculars and the lack of modern medicine.

You can't put that situation in 2005.....square peg in a round hole....

A question that seems to get passed over in these opinions is that of the life of the fetus (lIttle baby); is it or is it not human? Science has pretty well proven that the prenatal is a living being but whether or not to grant human status to the fetus is the big stumbling block. All the arguments of a wanted child, birth defects, corrupted environment, world violence, gender selection and so on can be applied to postnatal as well as prenatal babies. There is documented evidence it seems like everyday in the papers of live birth babies dying for these and more reasons. Facts remain: the fetus is killed whether it is a saline solution, dismemberment or vacuum suction. It was alive with brain waves, heart beats and emotions in it's little body; the same as a newborn baby has. And little baby (fetus) does feel pain at the time of destruction.

To those of us that follow the Christian way, this is not an unpardonable wrong doing. We believe that there is an abundance of forgiveness with grace and mercy is to be found in Christ. Millie's grandma had 22 kids and my mother had 9; thank goodness abortion was not in the picture. (Maybe no TV?)

Another interesting point from surveys I have read is more men are pro-abortion than women are. And I know from personal experience, it was the man pushing the woman it the direction of the procedure.

Of interest to women, more females are aborted when it come to gender selection.

http://www.family.org/fofmag/sl/a0024083.cfm  

John

Sonny skipped over my post. I understand that. I don't read all of these long threads either. To repeat, Beethoven's mother did not have siphilis. Beethoven was either her 2nd or 3rd child, and she had others after.

ele, saw it after i hit the post button.

Wyle, question: does the morning after pill kill a baby? (baby=active brain function)

I'm not being an @ss, seriously, I want to see your perspective outside of late-term abortion procedures.

IMO,the decision is up to the person who's pregnant and they should have the option. X

But should that option be taxpayer subsidized?

Should it be OK to perform without informing the father?

Should it be performed quickly and easily?

Let's not kid ourselves here.

The more the pro-choice crowd push their agenda, the more readily acceptable it becomes to get an abortion. That's hardly disputible.

Americans will spend more time picking out an automobile than they will deciding whether to keep an unborn child.

Despite what the doom and gloom crowd spew, there are options other than abandonment or a life of poverty.

An abortion should be the LAST choice. Not the first.

But ask any high school girl what she would do if she got pregnant, and you'll likely hear one overwhelming "choice".

That's quite a "victory" by the pro-choice'rs.

They should be proud...

Sonny if I might make a comment, there are many things to consider at conception. One the sciencetific definition for when life begins is at the point when the egg is fertilized and it become a zygote.

There have been instacnes where the zygote is split and then comes back together again. The question is were there two human entities? and the list goes on. Traditional moralist, such as myself, would say that it is permissable to flush and egg after one has been raped, but there is a very small window for this and this window does not allow for the conception of the child (zygote).

As a footnote to this the birth control pill acts as an abortifacient, so in the case that a woman does conceive the zygote is denied the nutrients it needs and dies, then leaves the mother at mentruation. Of coarse, we all might know someone who got pregnant while on the pill, but there are still many more human lives that are destroyed that we do not know of. The ones we do know of are the 4,000 killed through abortion.

The underlying issue here is that no one knows when the human soul is infused or when to classify personality. So, Traditional moralist deal with this by not taking any chances and refraining from any acts that might kill human life. In essence we cannot "kill now and ask questions later."

Bye saying a child in the zygote stage is not proved to be a person or have a soul, you have not proven that it does not. Therefore, the human zygote has the right to exist and be nurtured. It is not a dog or cat or unitentifiable entity. Even the order cells that make it up show that there is some intelligence behind the zygote, hence the word order. The fact that it is human gives it value that is great than other forms of life that are similar to it and exhibit the same kind of order. The point here is that it should not be thought of as some kind of senseless mass that is expendable.

Well, that's my 0.02

X,

what if it is also your child and you wanted to keep it? and there were nothing determental with the woman or child to prevent the posibility of you keeping the child after birth??

Sonny, my dad was also a mean b@stard, he would run around on my mom, he would come home at what ever hours he wanted and then start beating on us kids and mother... my oldest brother and mom were the one's who caught the brunt of his rages the most.. in 1976 my dad pulled a pistol on my oldest brother after we had been fishing all day... my other brother knew something was going to happen before it did (premonition?) he removed the bullets from the pistol.. but my dad located where my brother was staying pulled up in the driveway jumped out of the truck shoved the gun in his ribs and pulled the trigger several times... growing up wasn't an easy task around my Dad... in 1978 I took a ballbat to him to get him off my mother.. he was choking her to death in a drunken rage in 1979 Peoria county courthouse after the divorce hearings of my mom and dad.. my dad's gf cought up with my mom and I and little sister on the 3rd floor rotunda... she proceeded to beat and kick my mom... I grabbed my dad off guard by the throat and held him leaning over the balconey I told him I would let him go if he didn't call his B!tch off my mom...in 1988 my dad suceeded in shoting my oldest brother... with a 22 cal revolver when both of them were on a drinking benge the bullet entered and exited right below his heart and above his upper lung area...when I visited my dad for the last time Jan 2000.... I had forgiven him for all the events that had happened as we were growing up as kids...and we got to spend two solid days together at that time...he passed away a year later June 2001...at his wake/funeral procession, I was at peace with the whole thing... My brothers and sisters were not and as we talked about the good things about dad... it always ended up with discussion of the bad things... I am the 5th child of 6 in the family... my dad would work me(all of us kids)like a dog on jobs he did as a self employed contractor.. I didn't have summers to hang out with my friends growing up and every weekend if the house wasn't cleaned up and the weeds and yard mowed we didn't get to do anything for the weekend or the rest of the week...

I was given a choice in life (to have one) and I wasn't the perfect angel I still had the choice.. I could grow up and be exactly like my dad or I could learn from his wrong ways and make them positive in my life? taking the negative and turning them positive was what my choice was and is... I never raised my hand to my childeren accept to spank their Arses when they needed it... I never touched their mother accept in a loving way (there were a few times I wanted to k!ll the B!tch)when arguements started (which by the end of the marrage seemed to be the only communication) I would walk out the door and come back when things seemed civil or everyone was in bed...

Life is a test and every day one has another event that is going to test you... my finding God and asking him to guide me down the right paths in life was one of greatest things during my journey through life that has ever happened to me... I can view how my life would have turned out without the help through Jesus...

this holds true for even the fetus in a womb...they to should be given the chance to life's struggles and a chance to make a choice in their own lives...

Hog

rodnie, I believe you may be incorrect on how the BC pill works. It sends hormones into a woman's body making it think she is pregnant. Therefore, the body does not release an egg. When the woman starts taking the grey pills, he body sheds the lining, realising it is not pregnant.

And the morning after pill:

"How do these medications work? That depends on the time in a woman's cycle when they are taken. They may prevent ovulation — the release of the egg from the ovary — or they might delay ovulation until sperm are no longer capable of fertilizing an egg. (Sperm cells survive about five days.)

They may also interfere with the movement of egg and sperm within the tube (called the fallopian tube) that connects the uterus (or womb) and the ovary, or with the actual union of egg and sperm. All of these mechanisms are truly contraceptive — that is, they prevent fertilization (also called conception), the union of egg and sperm that starts a new human life. "