usahog
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:16:00 AM
Well said Rodnie...

Hog
usahog
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:21:00 AM
cexshun, I see allot of "May" so this is all in theory?

where as Rodnie nailed it... the morning after pill will cause the woman to go into menstration.. thus will cause her body to flush, (which is a natural thing) to flush all unwanted waist from her system... IE: aborted fetus...

May don't cut it in my book and probably not Gods book either???

Hog
rodnie
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:27:00 AM
cexshun,

The stage I was referring to is the secind line of defense of the birth control pill. I understand the pills first line of defense being the "tricking" of the body that it is pregnant.

But when this fails then comes in the second line of defense as I described above. I have asked some women if they know this or not and I believe that most do. Most men don't, I think under law a woman is supposed to be given this information. I think over all that this is not very well know, the BC Pill acts as an abortifacient also.
rodnie
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:28:00 AM
Oh, and Thanks Hog, I really appreciate it : )
gerber
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:40:00 AM
Despite my reluctance to enter into these dicey subjects, I will weigh in with personal experience as it related to this topic:

By the time I was born in 1960, my mother had been suffering from severe mental illness for a long time (diagnosed as psychosis back then). She also was highly anorexic (before they knew much about treating this problem.) She spent much of her pregnancy at the Mayo Clinic, and due to her precarious health, she was encouraged by her doctors to have an abortion, which she, for her own reasons, refused to do. She weighed 80 pounds when I was born (at normal birth weight, by the way). This wasn't a rosy time, however. I never bonded with my mom, who was too out of it mentally to do so, and I was pretty much passed around to various nurses, etc. Unfortunately, my mom's illness forced her to get violent toward me as an infant--my dad had to rush me to the emergency room on one occasion--and everyone realized I couldn't be left alone with her. In her own demented way at the time, she wanted to kill me. So, I was sent through the gauntlet of various caretakers. Thankfully, when I was two and my parents divorced, I went to live with another, very stable family which probably saved my life and gave me a very happy childhood.

Now, I've had my share of difficulties because of this early background, no doubt about it. But I bring this up just to point out that even good candidates to be aborted because of external factors(and I was certainly one) might just beat the odds placed against them. Despite all the odds, I managed to come out with a genius IQ, and my own emotional struggles have in later years led me to become pleasantly eccentric. My own son and I have a great time hanging out together. Point is, life's been a blessing even in the hardship. Even my mom is doing much better than those many years ago and is enjoying life, though she won't ever be quite "normal."

So, my purpose as far as the abortion debate is concerned is simply to state that when that tragic decision is made, one isn't just aborting what is, but also what is to come. Our human life is a continuum, and though a tiny fetus isn't the equivalent yet of a developed individual (at least at some levels), it is already in process to become that. I think that's the greater pity of it, and the part of the equation that is typically ignored.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm certainly sympathetic to women who are so desperate as to find even abortion expedient. The greater pity, though, is that choices are made with permanenet results based only on the here and now, which is indeed a very limited picture of things and probably of limited value in judging the worth of such a decision. The fact is, life is dynamic with respect to time: things change, we have hardships and get through, and people are different than they were half a lifetime ago. This is the more clear picture, and it's a pity that we can't look into the future and see it all before making such a fateful decision.

You see, it's kind of scary when I think that my life might not have happened at all. In fact, it was encouraged by the medical authorities not to, and it certainly met the criteria for being justifiably ended, even at a time when abortion on demand wasn't legal. Of course, that would have extinguished every shred of being and experience that's made me me for almost 45 years. Now, do I believe that all that my life has been should be expendable based on my mom's inordinately severe difficulties at the time of my birth? I think that's the real question.

It's all this kind of longitudinal thinking that I can't seem to help doing that leads me to dispute the claim to an innate and inalienable "right" to abortion. Yes, certainly it is a legal right, but I don't believe it is a human one. It is, rather, an exercise of decision and power in a moment of difficult circumstance--one that ends all that will be of one life in order to spare the condition, quality, and at times even the viability of another life. In the end, it is indeed a choice, and a choice that changes the world.

So, does this mean abortion shouldn't ever happen? Probably not, since life can be truly horrific and fragile, and even tragic expediencies seem needed in unusual circumstances. Even Jesus granted the expediency of divorce under the right conditions. But such expediencies were meant, I believe, to be there as a safety net when all else in life has failed. For me, the tragedy of abortion is not that it occurs, but that it occurs frequently and often with little more than the painful circumstances of the moment used to make a decision that cannot be undone when said circumstances have changed. In the end, perhaps what distinguishes us as human is that we bear responsibiilty for the choices we make, come what will. It makes me look fondly at the placid life my cat leads.

bassdude
Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:46:00 AM
some interesting reads here.

So sonny do you wish that you had been aborted? Hog obviously does not. Who says baby=active brain function? Like it or not LIFE begins at conception.
MACS
Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:04:00 AM
I see a lot of 'stone throwing' here. It is an interesting debate, to say the least.

But... "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

I hate it when people get pious about stuff.
Wyteyes
Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:56:00 PM
Sonny_LSU: Not a smart ass question. I personally believe that life starts at conception; that is my Christian opinion. You can probably find Christians who will disagree with me. I wasn't talking just about late term abortion but rather through most of the pregnancy. A young friend of ours delivered a 25 week preemie 2 years ago. Just 24 oz. it the time I saw him. Now he is running around messing things up like a 2 year old should be doing. Life is precious!!! It is not my job to twist anybody's arm to believe like I do. We live under the rule of law. But abortion is awful IMO and it is one of the hardest things I have had to deal with. I do believe in "the other side" and if the Christ I have embraced is true, we will meet these babies on the other side and one in particular.

USAHog: Loved your commentary. A friend of mine says that God loves to build temples out of piles of rubble. You are definitely a temple in process. "I'm just an old lump of coal, but I'm going to be a diamond someday." Those C&W guys write songs about everything, don't they.
Sonny_LSU
Friday, January 28, 2005 5:43:00 AM
here here, MAC!

Russ, that story is breathtaking and i tip my hat for who you are today:)

Religion and the beliefs on which it is founded are very intense and who is one or the other to say any of these beliefs are wrong?

Ah, we all agree to disagree.

As passionate as both sides are, we will always maintain that which makes us unique.
Mrs. Usahog
Friday, January 28, 2005 8:22:00 AM
SirWolfgang,


Dr. Gianna Beretta Molla, I have the greatest admiration for this woman.

Mrs. Usahog
rodnie
Friday, January 28, 2005 8:50:00 AM
Mrs USA and Wolfgang,

I wanted to chime in. First thanks Mrs. Hog for chiming in, I completely missed Wolfgangs thread. I too have great regard for Bl. Gianna Molla. Maybe someone pointed out that she forwent a proceedure to have her child aborted in order to save her life. She has a very inspiring story. All I can say is it teaches that there is goodness to be found if we are willing to work for it.
Wyteyes
Friday, January 28, 2005 7:52:00 PM
Gerber: Well said. Even jesus was not 100 percent; Judas left him. John
lovelyred
Saturday, January 29, 2005 2:47:00 PM
As of right now its a womans body so its her choice.... it sickens me to see people talk about it like its going to McDonalds ... hmm should I have the abortion or give away my child to some strangers .... hmmm ...... from what I see an unwanted pregnancy that is kept could go well or it could go bad ... we could have the next president .. or the next cereal Killer.... for every one great story there is a bad .... this is a matter of opinion ... to do it .. or not to ... thats why it is still a choice. Dont give me all that God and sinner crap .. look in the bible?? We are all sinners in one way or another!! What happened to thou shall not kill ... hmmm we are at war arent we??? or was it thou shall not kill .... unless..... I dont think so .... everyone is quick to send us to hell ... but go look and see how many sins you have..... Maybe if we put so much effort into the kids in foster care who are here now and unwanted we could get them all homes ...
SirWolfgang
Saturday, January 29, 2005 3:27:00 PM
.. or the next cereal Killer....

You sleigh me.

-Wolfy
usahog
Saturday, January 29, 2005 3:42:00 PM
Red,

from reading your posts.. it's drawn on me that you may be a bit confused?? Your not going to know what type child turns out prior to it's being born... it's the guided path down lifes journey's that will tell in the end.. or even along that Journey... it is up to the parents and elders in that childs life that will be the promoters of good fortune or bad... granted some children are born with problems, and will have more difficulties in their life long journey... but that can be considered less with Parents who work to raise their children to the best of their ability...

I also see in your posts that you have had to deal with this situation in your younger years? I see allot of anger from your last post... and to speak up about God and sinners that Judgement will be left up to one!!! Until then we all walk our own paths in life...

I do my best not to let pasts haunt my future!!!!

Hog
usahog
Saturday, January 29, 2005 3:44:00 PM
^
Wyteyes
Saturday, January 29, 2005 6:16:00 PM
Red: BINGO!!!! 99% right on.... We are all sinners as long as we live in this body. One is not "saved" because of what he does or does not do; in the Christian, way one is saved because he embraces Christ as the Savior. A point I would disagree with you is it is not the woman's body that is being aborted; it is the baby's body in question here. I grew up on the church bench so I was a little Bible thumper at the age of five. I could add several scriptures to almost every point you make. Example: they were going to send the prostitute to hell by stoning her. Jesus said the first one without sin cast the first stone; no rocks that day. Jesus does not have anybody to straighten up before they come to Him; He just says, "Come." And that is it. I must say that life defiantly gets better after that; especially in the sense of quality.

Somebody ought to give you a box of cigars for so many right answers.

John
rodnie
Sunday, January 30, 2005 2:32:00 PM
I think it's important to add that after Jesus saved the prostitute from being stoned to death he asked her "Woman where ar they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No, Lord." and Jesus said, "Neitherdo I condemn you; go, and do not sin again." John 8: 10-11.

I don't think anyone here with any of their comment meant to condemn anyone here. Hence there was no throwing of stones. This story is about how sinners can turn from their sins and to Jesus. The most important part about this story is when Jesus says "Do not sin again." If we know something is sinful, we have the obligation to be clear about it. Jesus is exemplar in this and so is his cousin John.

But, Jesus also spoke in parables about heaven because not everyone would be able to understand if he told them directly. He is also not fond about violence for example when Peter cuts off the ear of one of the gaurds, who came to take Jesus away. He rather accept his death as a witness to his gospel than than fight. It doesn't mean that he was justly killed, and so his innocent blood is the witness against his persecutors.

Peter was guilty of rejecting Jesus out of fear that he would be killed too. He chose the majority rather than the minority, the easy road rather than the hard road. We too are guilty of innocent life if we sit aside and do nothing about it. Peter repented and did what was right, though the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now you may not believe as I do, but the underlying point is that we have the responsibilty to seek the truth and live it. It is not an easy road and we can't do it through this forum. I for one would invite you to look into the Pro-Life moment your self and pray for wisdom and strenght. What ever your cultural backround may be, there is definitly something out there for you. There's ever Atheist for life and Christians and whoever else are glad to work with them. O.K. you all peace to you, forever peace!
usahog
Sunday, January 30, 2005 2:52:00 PM
well said Rodnie!!!!

Hog
cigarbidwidow
Monday, January 31, 2005 2:58:00 AM
This thread has taken a whole new meaning..... my not yet 20 year old daughter told me last night that she is pregnant. I know I don't want her to get an abortion. Although I am one that doesn't believe the government has the right to tell a woman (or man for that matter) what she can and can't do, I know how hard it is to make that decision. I hoped for my daughters sake that she never had to make the choice. She has a steady boyfriend and they had talked about getting married before but this guy is a low life jerk who has been using her. The advice I gave her was to not get married just because she is pregnant. My only hope is that she will take that advice. I would rather help her forever then have her marry him. (No David, this doesn't mean I want her to move back in).

I have always believed things happen for a reason. I am hoping that I will be able to see the reason for this.

Lauren