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Occupy Wall Street
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Brewha Offline
#251 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 8:46 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
This is why I say the word "" should be eliminated from the conversation. It is not . It was never intended to be . It is the system we set up.

A definition of could be that one person makes $1,000 and is taxed $100 and has $900 left. Another person makes $10,000 and is taxed $9,100 and has $900 left. They each have $900 left over so that is. This could be called the FuzzNJ/Brewha Punish Success Taxation System.

Another definition could be that one person makes $1,000 and is taxed at 10% so he pays $100 and has $900 left. Another person makes $10,000 and is taxed at 10% and pays $1000 and has $9000 left. They each paid the same percent of their income so that is.

The USA has chosen something in between that clearly isn't and punishes the successful with a much greater tax burden based on the logic that they'll still have plenty of money to go shopping, they aren't punished enough to pack up and go to the Caymans, Switzerland, or Monoco, and the lower end of the wealth spectrum will always have a sweet enough deal that they'll never take up torches and pitchforks.

The "progressive" part of our Federal income tax is its ability to eliminate insurrection.


No – removing the word don’t help^
Eh?


“The US punishes the successful”?
Are you reading what you write?
tailgater Offline
#252 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 8:51 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
The longer this lasts, the more obvious it is that OWS simply wants the governement to take care of them.
Brewha Offline
#253 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:02 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
tailgater wrote:
The longer this lasts, the more obvious it is that OWS simply wants the governement to take care of them.


Yeah, they are worse than that AAPR crowd!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#254 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:05 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
Brewha wrote:
Yeah, they are worse than that AAPR crowd!



How dare the Association for Airline Passenger Rights think they're entitled to a Cradle to Grave handout!whip
MikeyRavioli Offline
#255 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:16 AM EST
Joined: 10-10-2005
Posts: 2,105
borndead1 wrote:


My ex father in law grossed about 100K a year and paid maybe $1,500 a year in Federal income taxes. His accountant was a former IRS agent.



Just curious - When you say he paid 1,500 a year do you mean at the end of the year when he filed his income taxes or net total all year long. Unless he is self employed his net payroll taxes for federal should have had him paying ballpark 30k depending on his tax bracket directly from his paycheck.

borndead1 Offline
#256 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:37 AM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
MikeyRavioli wrote:
Just curious - When you say he paid 1,500 a year do you mean at the end of the year when he filed his income taxes or net total all year long. Unless he is self employed his net payroll taxes for federal should have had him paying ballpark 30k depending on his tax bracket directly from his paycheck.



1500 total. He laughed about it. Like I said, his accountant was a former IRS agent. He owned a small security company, 3 accounts and like 9-10 employees if I recall correctly. This was 10 years ago though. I don't know if he could still pull something like that off. I was making a point that people will find a way to weasel out of paying taxes if they can, and that working shlubs who get taxes witheld from their weekly paychecks are the ones who really pay most of the taxes. That whole "top 1% pay the most" argument looks compelling on the surface, but if you look at the fact that the tier STARTS at 380,000 a year, it doesn't add up. 380,000 a year is not rich. Far from it. If it were truly "the rich" who paid all the taxes, the starting tier for that 1% figure would be 2 or 3 million, not 380,000.
HockeyDad Offline
#257 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:37 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
borndead1 wrote:
What I'm saying is if it truly is "the rich" who pay all the taxes, that top threshold would start at like 2 million, not 380,000.


Rich, upper class, middle class, lower class have no actual definition. The best you can go off is IRS and Census statistics.

Occupy Wall Street talks about the evil top 1%. Those evil doers are households making more than $380K.

A lot of people who think they are middle class are easily top 20% or even top 10%.
HockeyDad Offline
#258 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:40 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
borndead1 wrote:
1500 total. He laughed about it. Like I said, his accountant was a former IRS agent. He owned a small security company, 3 accounts and like 9-10 employees if I recall correctly. This was 10 years ago though. I don't know if he could still pull something like that off. I was making a point that people will find a way to weasel out of paying taxes if they can, and that working shlubs who get taxes witheld from their weekly paychecks are the ones who really pay most of the taxes. That whole "top 1% pay the most" argument looks compelling on the surface, but if you look at the fact that the tier STARTS at 380,000 a year, it doesn't add up. 380,000 a year is not rich. Far from it. If it were truly "the rich" who paid all the taxes, the starting tier for that 1% figure would be 2 or 3 million, not 380,000.




It sounds like you should report him for tax fraud so we can "Wesley Snipes" him and you can collect the reward!
borndead1 Offline
#259 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:46 AM EST
Joined: 11-07-2006
Posts: 5,216
HockeyDad wrote:
It sounds like you should report him for tax fraud so we can "Wesley Snipes" him and you can collect the reward!



He passed away about 5 yrs ago.

But I could probably get his accountant's name and number for you!
Brewha Offline
#260 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:56 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
“The US punishes the successful”?


Are you reading what you write?
HockeyDad Offline
#261 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:57 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
That is too long ago. The statue of limitations would have run out. (That one was for Brewha!)
HockeyDad Offline
#262 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 9:59 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:
Are you reading what you write?


Perhaps I'll rewrite in terms you can understand.

The US fairs the successful.
Brewha Offline
#263 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:10 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
Perhaps I'll rewrite in terms you can understand.

The US fairs the successful.


Yes well, that's the US isn’t it? Anyone who make a touchdown gets told to drop and give me twenty!




( . . . . we have secretly replaced the artificial sweetener in HockyDads coffee crack cocaine. Sooo stay tuned, you won’t want to miss a minute . . . )
DrafterX Offline
#264 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:11 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,595
I thought you were suppose to smoke crack..... Mellow
HockeyDad Offline
#265 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:14 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:
Yes well, that's the US isn’t it? Anyone who make a touchdown gets told to drop and give me twenty!


You would propose that a poor person gets 6 points for the touchdown and a rich person would only get 2 points. That way by the end of the game the score would be a tie. FAIR!
Brewha Offline
#266 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:29 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
You would propose that a poor person gets 6 points for the touchdown and a rich person would only get 2 points. That way by the end of the game the score would be a tie. FAIR!


I was empathizing with your view that the US punishes the successful – I was in fact, not proposing anything.

I found your statement of ‘punishing the successful’ divisive, wrong, and openly deceptive. In a global sort of way . . . . .

BTW – I thought you didn’t what to use the “f” word.
Brewha Offline
#267 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:31 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
DrafterX wrote:
I thought you were suppose to smoke crack..... Mellow


It is a French thing. Ever wonder why French Roast has so much kick?
Makes them cranky too.
DrafterX Offline
#268 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:33 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,595
Think Think
I better stock up while I still can....
Brewha Offline
#269 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:34 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
That is too long ago. The statue of limitations would have run out. (That one was for Brewha!)


Very funny – but we ALL KNOW that statues cannot run because they are made of stone – like Wheel’s heart . . . . .
HockeyDad Offline
#270 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:35 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
You use the "fair" word in a divisive, wrong, and openly deceptive manner. You want to punish more but like a nicer word for it.
HockeyDad Offline
#271 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:37 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:

It is a French thing. Ever wonder why French Roast has so much kick?
Makes them cranky too.



Crack is an American thing. I heard the CIA invented it for the inner city people.
Brewha Offline
#272 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:38 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
DrafterX wrote:
Think Think
I better stock up while I still can....


Careful – next thing you know you’ll be fathering an entire hockey team . . . .
DrafterX Offline
#273 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:39 AM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,595
HockeyDad wrote:
Crack is an American thing. I heard the CIA invented it for the inner city people.



I heard that too..... and they started selling malt liquor to them instead of throwing it away... Mellow
Brewha Offline
#274 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:44 AM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
You use the "fair" word in a divisive, wrong, and openly deceptive manner. You want to punish more but like a nicer word for it.

No, not at all. I spoke of equity and balance. You spoke of punishment.

Most of us just don’t want to be taken advantage of by the wealth or the laws they financed. It is nothing to do with punishment – even if they are godless, greedy baztards . . . .
DrMaddVibe Offline
#275 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 10:45 AM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
HockeyDad wrote:
Crack is an American thing. I heard the CIA invented it for the inner city people.



They use crack as a transport method for their AIDS virus.

Sometimes they throw them in cans of soda that get dispersed in the inner city.

That's what I heard.
HockeyDad Offline
#276 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 12:30 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:
No, not at all. I spoke of equity and balance. You spoke of punishment.

Most of us just don’t want to be taken advantage of by the wealth or the laws they financed. It is nothing to do with punishment – even if they are godless, greedy baztards . . . .




Your preferred method of achieving equity and balance is to use punishment. You just don't want to call it that because it makes you look like a greedy baztard.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#277 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 12:41 PM EST
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,610
Look at you!

Opening up a new market for the pitchforks and torches!


Applause
HockeyDad Offline
#278 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 1:20 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
I got 100,000 pitchfork/torch combo packs sitting in China right now. If I don't get something started soon I'll have to dump them on Big Lots and write-off the loss on my taxes.
MikeyRavioli Offline
#279 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 1:30 PM EST
Joined: 10-10-2005
Posts: 2,105
Lets leave the business owners and CEO's out of it for a minute.

Equity and balance or punishment?

Three guys work for the same company, all on the books, none of them is the owner.

One guy works in an entry level position in the whse and makes $26k a year. On that he is taxed about 19% and at the end of the year he gets a couple of hundred bucks refund.
The next guy is his department supervisor and makes $52k a year. On that he is taxed about 25% and at the end of the year pretty much breaks even.
The next guy is the Director that has responsibility for that dept among others and makes $110k a year. On that he is taxed about 32% and at the end of the year owes a few grand.


No matter how you view it - by total dollar amount, by percentage, - the more succesful you are the more you pay.

MikeyRavioli Offline
#280 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 1:31 PM EST
Joined: 10-10-2005
Posts: 2,105
.
FuzzNJ Offline
#281 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:01 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
The topic was Federal Income Tax.


I'm quite aware of that. By just using Federal Income Tax though it skews the overall tax burden results, something those on the right are doing in an attempt to make a political point rather than a sound fiscal policy suggestion.
FuzzNJ Offline
#282 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:03 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:


not to mention, The cost of preparing for each audit was about $5k each,,,


Either you don't keep good records or that figure is a lie.
FuzzNJ Offline
#283 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:04 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Btw,

Fuzz and Brewha,,

you do realize Obama is proposimg eliminating your Mortagage Interst deduction and Fuzz,your State income Tax deduction too.


I don't think I am special.
FuzzNJ Offline
#284 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:06 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
My point is Our resident Bleeding Hearts think it's not about them..



Another strange misperception on your part.
FuzzNJ Offline
#285 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:06 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
You made the assumption that they own a home and pay state income taxes.


Are you making an assumption that we don't?
FuzzNJ Offline
#286 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:11 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
Actually I think that 47% of households don't pay Federal Income Tax is an IRS published statistic.

You're trying to blur it with talk of property and sales taxes that some little old lady pays.

Why should a disabled vet or a little old lady or kids whose parents were killed not have to pay their fair share of taxes?



You can't bring up 'fair' if you don't believe in the concept. Besides what would be fair for a person on a limited income above and beyond the other taxes they are responsible for? Let's say they take in 15k a year in a fixed income. What you are advocating is taking more from that person who is barely making it while not asking someone who takes in 1000% more.
HockeyDad Offline
#287 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:12 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
FuzzNJ wrote:
I'm quite aware of that. By just using Federal Income Tax though it skews the overall tax burden results, something those on the right are doing in an attempt to make a political point rather than a sound fiscal policy suggestion.



Well DUH!


If anyone made sound fiscal policy decisions we wouldn't have $15 trillion in debt!
Brewha Offline
#288 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:15 PM EST
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,202
HockeyDad wrote:
Your preferred method of achieving equity and balance is to use punishment. You just don't want to call it that because it makes you look like a greedy baztard.


Punishment = paying taxes.
Oh – now I see the “point”.

And that would be "godless, greedy baztard". (just helpin ya out).

It is a privilege for an American to support his country. That’s why so many serve and give their lives. It is sad that you see people doing their part as punishment.
FuzzNJ Offline
#289 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:17 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
Social Security is already Taxed and Clinton increased that Tax.


I thought you said poor people don't pay taxes?

wheelrite wrote:

A College loan is just that a loan,pay it back...


duh. One issue is that congress thought that the private banking industry could do a 'better' job than government with regards to student loans and let them make the rules as to how much interest they could charge making a college loan much much more difficult to repay.

wheelrite wrote:

Billionaires have already payed income tax on the money they've invested.That's why they pay Cap Gains...


Yes, capital gains at a rate of 15%, not the 35+ that other income is taxed at. Sure, they paid taxes on the money they invested, why should the money earned from that investment be taxed at a lower rate. It's still income.

wheelrite wrote:

Which poor person employs you ?


Ah yes, the job creator argument. How has that been working out?
HockeyDad Offline
#290 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:18 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
FuzzNJ wrote:
You can't bring up 'fair' if you don't believe in the concept. Besides what would be fair for a person on a limited income above and beyond the other taxes they are responsible for? Let's say they take in 15k a year in a fixed income. What you are advocating is taking more from that person who is barely making it while not asking someone who takes in 1000% more.




I've been the one saying "fair" is a load of crap. It has no practical definition in the conversation.
FuzzNJ Offline
#291 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:20 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
wheelrite wrote:
well that's where we differ,,
I believe that the Majority of people are honest.


lmao. Let's all hands and sing Pollyanna.
HockeyDad Offline
#292 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:21 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
FuzzNJ wrote:
Yes, capital gains at a rate of 15%, not the 35+ that other income is taxed at. Sure, they paid taxes on the money they invested, why should the money earned from that investment be taxed at a lower rate. It's still income.




I think it is already a done deal that short term capital gains, long term capital gains, and dividends will soon be taxed the exact same as any other income.

I also do not think that will satisfy the bloodlust for the rich to pay their fair share.
FuzzNJ Offline
#293 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:22 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
tailgater wrote:
The longer this lasts, the more obvious it is that OWS simply wants the governement to take care of them.



This is true only if one ignores 95% of what the people are actually saying.
HockeyDad Offline
#294 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:25 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
Brewha wrote:
Punishment = paying taxes.
Oh – now I see the “point”.

And that would be "godless, greedy baztard". (just helpin ya out).

It is a privilege for an American to support his country. That’s why so many serve and give their lives. It is sad that you see people doing their part as punishment.



If punishment = paying taxes, you want increased punishment for the more successful.

God bless America, and thank you for your service. It is a shame that you see people doing their part as not being good enough.
FuzzNJ Offline
#295 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:28 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
Rich, upper class, middle class, lower class have no actual definition. The best you can go off is IRS and Census statistics.

Occupy Wall Street talks about the evil top 1%. Those evil doers are households making more than $380K.


There is very little talk of 'evilness' of individual people, it's more of a demand for equal justice under the law and economic system. A shift from a corporate centered economy to a citizen centered one.

HockeyDad wrote:

A lot of people who think they are middle class are easily top 20% or even top 10%.


I'm glad you brought that up. People have studied that. Figure 4 from the academic piece linked below deals with the subject and it's interesting to say the least. The entire piece is full of great info.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
MikeyRavioli Offline
#296 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:29 PM EST
Joined: 10-10-2005
Posts: 2,105
At what point have I done my part plus about 4 other peoples part as well?
FuzzNJ Offline
#297 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:36 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
Perhaps I'll rewrite in terms you can understand.

The US fairs the successful.


The US has the most millionaires, over 5,000,000 of them. We also have the most billionaires. Corporate profits have never been higher.

Yes, they are so severely punished, how will they ever survive.
FuzzNJ Offline
#298 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:38 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
HockeyDad wrote:
Your preferred method of achieving equity and balance is to use punishment. You just don't want to call it that because it makes you look like a greedy baztard.


aaahahahahahahaha, you can't even be serious here. Seriously, swear that you are being serious and I'll respond.
FuzzNJ Offline
#299 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:39 PM EST
Joined: 06-28-2006
Posts: 13,000
MikeyRavioli wrote:
Lets leave the business owners and CEO's out of it for a minute.

Equity and balance or punishment?

Three guys work for the same company, all on the books, none of them is the owner.

One guy works in an entry level position in the whse and makes $26k a year. On that he is taxed about 19% and at the end of the year he gets a couple of hundred bucks refund.
The next guy is his department supervisor and makes $52k a year. On that he is taxed about 25% and at the end of the year pretty much breaks even.
The next guy is the Director that has responsibility for that dept among others and makes $110k a year. On that he is taxed about 32% and at the end of the year owes a few grand.


No matter how you view it - by total dollar amount, by percentage, - the more succesful you are the more you pay.



And that's the definition of a progressive income tax.
HockeyDad Offline
#300 Posted: Wed, Oct 19 2011, 2:39 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,208
FuzzNJ wrote:
The US has the most millionaires, over 5,000,000 of them. We also have the most billionaires. Corporate profits have never been higher.

Yes, they are so severely punished, how will they ever survive.



What you meant to say is they should be punished some more.
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