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Re: Bleeding Kansas ...

I was reading up on the Missouri & Kanas conflicts last night. Refreshing my memory, if you will.

In fact, in the book, War Crimes Against Southern Civilians references many massacres in that conflict. In reading several reviews of that book, many readers mentioned how hard that book was to read, from diaries, personal accounts, obscure newspaper articles & government reports. Half-way through it I had to agree, it was so infuriating, that I had to put it down.

Of course not all atrocities in that conflict were one sided, but of all the heinous things that took place in the Civil War, a great many occurred in Missouri & Kansas.

Funny thing, the, "convince people" part is same thing others have done while arguing a point with you only to be attacked. You can make a good argument but refuse to accept any facts, other than what you carefully select to support your point of view.

Selective facts are fine, but the ad hominem personal attacks when someone has a different view of the same facts or alternative facts, in not. A perfect example is in your response to Mac's conciliatory post, you start out by calling him drunk. Sure you follow with a little self deprecating humor, but lead with an attack. In closing, and in your style, yes you are a douche when you attack a person and not an idea.

You'd be surprised to hear gene, that most of the discussions I had (well before my new calmer, more flippant attitude) were never met with facts, but rather with "libtard", "commie" etc comments. In fact, the responses I get have not significantly changed from when I spent a lot of time and effort being reasonable and respectful. I've seen zero difference in response, but I get to mock people.

As for your idea that I was accusing MACS of being drunk, I think you read into that wrong. That wasn't intended to be a "you were drunk, you should be ashamed of yourself" statement. It was a simple "after a couple beers people lose their filter" statement. That's not an attack... unless you think we should be more PC about people having a couple drinks.

True, you don't have a corner on the insult market, but you don't have to join in, just keep asking questions. There are more ways than one to be annoying, and I know quite a few.

From history.com:

On November 15, in perhaps the boldest act of the war, he led an army of sixty-two thousand men in two wings, with thirty-five thousand horses and twenty-five hundred wagons, on an overland march to Savannah–cutting himself off from his line of supply and sustaining his army on the land. “The utter destruction of [Georgia’s] roads, houses and people,” he had written, “will cripple their military resources… I can make Georgia howl!” Encountering little organized opposition, Sherman took Savannah on December 21, 1864, and later turned north for the Carolinas, covering 450 miles in fifty days.

The results of this remarkable march justified Sherman’s strategic expectations and, together with Grant’s victories in Virginia, destroyed the Confederacy’s ability to carry on the war. It is still disputed, however, whether the burning of Atlanta, the later burning of Columbia, South Carolina, and the depredations of “Sherman’s bummers” were either necessary or unpreventable.

It's interesting to note how the left will scream & moan how US soldiers treat Iraq & Afghanistan terrorist prisoners, but will chuckle & laugh at the fate of Southern women & children at the hands of the Union army in the Civil War.

Go figure.

They started a war that they couldn't win, and still cry about it 150 years later.
Sherman should have burned all of it.

I've been here for nearly 62 years, know tons of liberals, have yet to hear a chuckle about the fate of Southerners. You are validating your own hatred, I'm afraid.

its okay Jet, they're burning their own cities now.

So you are a fan of war crimes, noted.

Wow bander, is that really how you feel?


This has to be a joke or picking.

It is a curiosity of our culture that we have such a romanticism with war. I have never understood our instilled desire to kill or be killed.

No talk of Civil War Prison Camps can occur without the mention of Elmira, whose conditions & death rate equaled that of Andersonville.

Speaking of Andersonville, three times Camp guards marched the union prisoners to union lines in an offer to repatriate the soldiers back to the union army & three times they were refused !!!

Can you just imagine how demoralizing this must have been to those suffering prisoners, to have their own countrymen refuse to accept & comfort them, and send their own men back to the POW camp ?!!

In the diary of Eliza Frances Andrews, the women in their house saw the procession of prisoners marching up the road, and they rushed to their fields, digging up turnips & potatoes to give to the prisoners as they passed by.

Read about Elmira, you are right, it was bad. Did not know about the attempted return of prisoners from Sumter.

Oh look! Another Yankee 'constructive' comment.

Oh look another Dixie battle flag waving sympathizer that doesn't think for a second that the Civil War was really about slavery.

so I was wrong.
so maybe just people I know have compassion

Happy 4th of July to them too!

AND...Gettysburg.

NEVER FORGET!

Wait a minute.....


Folks don't think highly of Southerners?????

Defend the Japanese that attacked us? More like my best friend's family that was locked up in the Manzanar Internment camp during WWII, American citizens by the way. Yes, that name is offensive and if you're not aware of that perhaps you should do more reading and less posting.

As for mines, there were marine mines used in the civil war but I'm not aware of land mines used by either side. Even if they had been used, two wrongs don't make a right, i.e., marching prisoners of war over suspected mines.

All Southerners no more hate all Yankees than all Yankees hate all Southerners. They do chafe at the constant barrage of insults hurled their way.

Far from being "independent" you are ill informed and piling on, at least from my point of view.

Happy Fourth of July Mattie.

Frank from Boston.

Just stirring the pot.

Don't give a ****,

I've been called racist, homophobic, bigoted, Yankee, Southern, White, Hate Mongering, Pro Life, Pro Choice, Pro-Religion, Neo-Con and just about everything in-between in my days here at CBid.

You know what?


IDGAF.

I don't answer to any of you. I don't answer to what you subscribe. I answer to what I answer to. This America that I live in isn't recognizable by our Founding Fathers anymore...oh, I'm sure they'd like something's that we've done with their grand experiment BUT they would shoot most of you for your beliefs and what they stood for when they carved this nation off the back side of an English penal colony. For the rest, they would've hung for treason for prostituting their beliefs in a 3 prong form of government that is now beholden to the all mighty dollar...be that from a banking system or a military system or just from a form of a bribe. This nation we live in now is a hybrid of what they designed. Don't believe me? Look at what they had to say about it. This is uncharted territory and I hope and pray for all that is still righteous in this republic that it restores it's former glory and conforms to it's pillars on which she was borne.

As for waving, showing or displaying this Dixie battle flag and thinking that there's some moral or upper ground to be salvaged it was lost back at Appomattox when Lee surrendered. Over. No more do over. Nothing left to cling to. Nothing left but the Republic for which She stands. Anything else is an affront to it. Some sort of insurrection that MUST be put down. Something that must not stand the light of day. Something that is abhorrent to all that we hold sanctified as a nation. If we don't go through that test of blood and unhold insurrection then we will most certainly be doomed to repeat the past and go through another Civil War. A war that will rip this nation into smaller parts. A nation that will be conquered and devoured by others that would like nothing more than to see Her consumed. A Nation weakened to the point of unraveling. THIS is what Lincoln railed against. He saw the wisdom in the Republic. He understood the evils that were against it then and the evils that would try to prevail after. A war that he was willing to wage against brother against brother to sanctify the Grand Experiment. He saw the document for what it was. He broke the holy sentiments to make sure She didn't unravel.

For those that STILL to this day, even against those that would put Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. aside like he didn't matter and what He stood for an uphold their belief that this battle flag is some sort of "heritage"...see it for what it is. A heritage where America as you all know it is shattered. Your Rights dissolved. The rights of certain people because the color of their skin is relegated to only a 3/5 minority. A nation that would be o divided now that as we know it we would still hold the hatred of racism...oh still still do and use Ol' Dixie as it's crutch. Death be upon it. It didn't serve any purpose. It was defeated then and it should and always be defeated. It's symbols of division won't stand. It's standing won't either. Those that still wave it should be looked down upon and should not deserve the common decency of it's citizenry. They should be lower standing than immigrants that want to be here legally. They want to destroy this nation. They wanted to see her hold humans down even after we removed the yoke of tyranny from King George and defeated his army and navy on the field of battle to create this nation. No, this flag should only remain in museums for those to look upon it with disgust. The same disgust that I hold against it for dare thinking for a second that any military insurrection would go unpunished with impunity. It's symbols and what it stood for lost. It lost against God, Country, and Man. It should not be upheld. Those that do should be persecuted like those in Germany are for waving any Nazi symbol! See it for what it is. Even the Germans understand the evil of the Nazi Third Reich and to this day destroy all of it's symbolism. Those in this nation are afforded certain liberties but to think for one second that it give them the moral high ground to put a race, creed or color down for it...NO! Your day is done. You were rebuked then and you shall be for evermore. You will be doomed for waving those signs of hatred and your hearts will be known for what you're doing.

You were defeated then. You're defeated now. You're defeated forever and no gates of Heaven will ever welcome you for your consumed hatred. Get over it and see it for what it was. A military insurrection against a standing nation to attempt some sort of division. A division borne from the color a Man was borne from against a Nation that told us we were ALL to be held equal.

Remove the flag from whatever you're clinging to because it's only hatred that binds you. Hatred against Mankind. Hatred against this great Nation. Hatred that no Man should hold in their heart because he did not create it. Hatred is borne from only ignorance. That ignorance we defeated because it was unjust. That ignorance was against all that God has created. That ignorance still stands in affront to all rational thinking as pure hate. See it for what it is and I implore those still trying to cling to it... do your due diligence and research what the Confederacy stood for. It was not moral, nor just nor something to die for. It was an affront to those then and it most certainly is to those now. Those that stood arm in arm in Mississippi and walked across bridges, those that dared to enter public schools in Alabama...those that gave their lives for the sheer hatred so certain people could hide behind their masks and wave "Ol' Dixie". No, it's time is done and it was brought down by one of your own! A person raised and steeped in hatred. A hatred so deep that he thought he would be perceived as some sort of hero for killing people in a church all because of the color of their skin. It needs to die and those that still cling to it are doomed for doing so. Your hearts are hardened. Your parents failed you and your Nation let you down. You're just some twisted misguided hate mongering killer that doesn't deserve the Rights this Nation affords you. YOU are a traitor. A conspirator against the Republic. A true hate rebel, and you will never get the retribution you seek. Hatred is hatred. In your heart, your tongue or in your soul it's still hatred and YOU are what is holding this nation from moving forward with the Grand Experiment. The kind that Jefferson, Addams, Revere, and Henry sought to carve out. You are a plague. A disease that is still here amongst us. A blight against Humanity that still breathes. An evil that should just die, but your heart still beats for it.

Gotta disagree Johann.

Hate is not in a flag. Hate is not inherited. It is taught, or learned through experience.

If you believe that the rebel flag is a symbol of hate, and you equate it to the nazi flag, and the atrocities it espouses... then what about OUR flag?

What WE as a nation did to the Native American Indians... in the name of pilgrimage, is just as atrocious, if not moreso, than what the Germans did to the Jews. We were more cowardly about it. We gave them blankets laden with smallpox. We signed treaties with them and broke them, time after time. We promised them land, and gave them dried up sh*tholes.

The Stars and Stripes stand for what? Freedom? Or the raping and pillaging of an indigenous people?

My point now being made... shall we pack our sh*t and go back to England?

NO... WE SHALL NOT. History is history. We should leave it in the past, but move forward and learn from our mistakes.

My $.02

Oh! I wish I was in in a land of cotton, old times there are not forgotten ...