Chris

This is my last response to the matter of lies by Bush that you claim.

Bush hasnt been proven to be a liar, you and others are speculating only. What ever happened to the presumption of innocence first?

You are hell bent on believing that he has lied, with no evidence of it. Just because the WMD havent been found yet, doesnt mean they wont be.

We all need to wait and see. If you are correct, I'll admit I'm wrong. If I'm correct then I hope you will do the same. Until its really over and done with, neither of us are wrong or right.

We need to stop accusing without evidence. It's a good debate we are having, and I've actually enjoyed it with you. But we obviously arent going to agree any time soon on this one.

Time for me to grab a brewski and a smoke! I hope you get to do the same. At least we know that there is some common ground there, hehe!

Good debate Chris! Have a good rest of your weekend too.

Mag

Magnafide

i hope you enjoy your beer or two and get a good night's sleep. don't forget next wed night mars will be closer to us, you and me, and all we leaf burners, then it has been in a long time, way over a month, and it will not be this close again for 60,000 years. at first i thought the estimate was 50,000, but when it was determined to be 60,00, i said the hell with it, i am not waiting that long.

how about at 12:00 GMT, we all blow smoke at mars and see if we hear a cough. i for one plan on finding out what GMT means and doing my smoke blowing.

Thanks Rick!

My wife and I have a very high power telescope. Its diameter is 8 inches across! It captures images so well its incredible.

Have you ever seen the rings of Saturn with a good telescope? Its beautiful! Well, I'll be sure to pull out the telescope for a good look at Mars. That should be pretty good.

I need to get the camera adapter so I can get pics of some stars and planets to post. Yea, thats the ticket, hehe!

Mag

rick wrote: am able to see and understand the opposite points of view without saying something stupid and nasty about the person himself.

RICK also wrote: i'll bet if you are old enough, and have a few bucks, you have a lot of guns. you know the hunting guns like a thompson submachine gun or a zip gun. you also hate ****s, jews, and other foreigners, like wet backs that come here and steal jobs that good americans wanted. this is a whiteman's country and we are diluting the blood with these mixed marriages. that'-s how come there are so many sinnin homo-queers.
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hahaha yea RICK your able to see and understand the opposite points of view without saying something stupid and nasty about the person himself.

NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION, WHY ARE WE FIGHTING THIS WAR FOR OIL. JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

YOU WANT THE TRUTH! YOU WANT THE TRUTH!

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Rick
You are taking more time than normal to find a cut and paste to answer for you.

at least he’s cutting and pasting words from movies,,, anyway lets have the truth rick. tell us about this oil war, being that pre-war we imported less the 10% of our oil from them, and we already declared that we are giving the oil back to the Iraqi PEOPLE after the war is over. Not even the far left is trying to argue this (oil war idea) anymore.

Now it’s Time for me to raise the American flag in the yard. And pray to Jesus Christ, to thank him and my country for my freedom. One nation under GOD indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

65gtoman

i don't pray. i am disinterested in any religious behavior.

i am glad you have a flag.

Why would you be interested in any religious behavior living in your fantasy land without a care in the world, if you ever had to fight in a war and you just seen the guy next to you have a round rip though his chest and his blood squirting into your mouth, you would be preying to god quicker then you think.

So I take it you have no real argument regarding this (oil war) you spoke about, being that you have not posted anything on the topic, now I guess we will go back to my original question of why we are fighting this war? I told you why I think we are fighting this war, in great detail, but it seems you cant do the same, you cant just say there’s no reason to goto war, we are over there so it have to be some sort of reason or motive good or bad.



Here is my answer again to all your questions,

Saddam, bin laden and the rest of the extremists over in those parts, simply want to kill us, you seen that on 9/11, they where in the mists of researching/building such weapons that could affect us, so instead of waiting for your so called proof, we went in and dismantled their leadership before such weapons could be made. (or have already been made and are hidden) in that process we are freeing the people of those countries from evil dictators.

We have already found gases stored over there, which they used to gas 1000’s of people.

Its like this, say you have a small weed growing in the garden, do you leave it alone because it poses no threat to the other plants at this moment in time, or let it over grow and multiply. Sucking all the nutrients out of the soil and killing the other plants and then decide to kill the weed because now you have proof that it would have killed your garden. But now its to late, your garden is dead, BUT you have your proof.


If they had weapons of mass destruction that would reach our soil they would use them without hesitation, its bad enough they have weapons of mass destruction that can kill thousands of people in there own area, they needed to be taken out of power, and that’s that, we found torture chambers over there already. Are you liberals for torture chambers?

Take North Korea, you got the nut kim jong il, who has nuclear capabilities, its going to be a lot harder to mess with him now, then a few years ago.


Lets just say we never went to war over there, look 20years down the line, do you think that Saddam would not have nukes by then? Then our children would have to fight an even worse battle with even more deaths and body bags for an even longer war period.

Read the last part carefully!!

Also as far as this so called backlash goes, please…. they want to kill us off for just being a nation of mostly christens they call us infidels, and we must be killed. That’s what they believe in, that’s why 9/11 happened.

A couple of points:

1) Aren't we just giving these terrorist nations more reasons to attack us by trying to colonize them??

2) terrorists don't descriminate about what religion they want to kill, as long as it is different from theirs.

So what is the answer, invade and take over every country with terrorists, or every country that may eventually be a threat to the US? If this is the case, we better hold onto our hats. Also, why are the terrorists so intent on killing Americans when they have a whole bunch of Europeans within arms reach?
Could it be that this country has such a hard on for power? From the outside looking in, it appears as though the US is not only trying to implement a govenrnment in iraq that is democratic and for the people, but it is also trying to implement a US friendly government. Are we going to let the people of iraq decide, are they going to go to the polls and vote on what kind of government they should have? Nope.
I'm not saying that preventing terrorist nations from having WMD is bad, I am saying that you can't stick your di*k in someones a$$ and tell them they have to like it without somekind of repercussions.

Just thinking out loud.

Rick - You are a veteran right? Funny how 65gtoboy assumes away without knowing diddly about anyone on the board....

Are we going to let the people of iraq decide, are they going to go to the polls and vote on what kind of government they should have?

YES that has been decided already from the beginning, where have you been? we are stabilizing the land for their new government to step in, also as far as (terrorist nations) there is only terrorist groups and dictators not nations of terrorist people. The people of these lands have already been (colonized) by evil dictators, we are freeing those people.

also they already want to kill us, how can one want to kill us more. remember when they drove a small boat of explosives into one of our navy ships, remember 9/11?

Maybe if we pull all our troops out now, and send them 25% of all our gold in the U.S., they might not want to kill us anymore, and then we will all be safe.

65gtoman,
"(Are we going to let the people of iraq decide, are they going to go to the polls and vote on what kind of government they should have?)
"YES that has been decided already from the beginning, where have you been?""
-OK, it has been decided from the beginning, but who decided? I don't recall reading in the papers that the people of iraq decided that the US would institute a democratic government (or whatever government) based on the votes of the Iraqi people. Any way you want to argue this point, it comes down to the fact that the US is removing the current dictatorship and putting one in that they see more fit. I'm not trying to argue the advantages or disadvantages of said government, just who decided that it was necissary and that it is the right government for Iraq.

"also as far as (terrorist nations) there is only terrorist groups and dictators not nations of terrorist people."
-I have a word for you - Semantics

"The people of these lands have already been (colonized) by evil dictators"
-No, they have not been colonized by evil dictators, they are being ruled by dictators...there is a difference. If you want a long boring drawn-out explanation, let me know.

"we are freeing those people."
-I know you think we are freeing those people, and I know most people in the "civilized world" think we are freeing those people, but do those people think we are freeing them. (And I don't expect a response to this question since you aren't one of those people). Every individual interprets their freedom in different ways. I think that there are many people who would question the freedom they get in THIS country. Do you think that a homosexual man that can't marry his partner feels free? I know this is kind of a mute point, because I will agree that the people of Iraq will have more freedom than they did under the Hussain regeim, but we are not "freeing those people", because nobody is absolutely free.

well im sure some of the people over there, well be happy to know that they wont get gassed by the thousands anymore, and the chambers of death are now closed, but i guess if you view gassing people to death should be some kind of freedom or right, well i guess they lost that right...

That happened more than 10 years ago!! Do you have anything else to talk about???

I'm sure you would think Drinking and Driving was not a big deal if you family was killed by one TEN YEARS ago. How about if your mother was killed by a crack head oh. it is O.K. it was TEN YEARS ago. How about if a town the size of West Plains MO. was wiped off the face of the earth by a sadistic mad man who cared nothing about life. It would be O.K. because it was TEN YEARS ago. I thought a little more highly of you before you opened you pie hole and showed your A$$.

If it hasn't happened in 10 years it isn't an immediate threat to our or their security. I'm not diminishing the brutality of what happened, just trying to see how gassing thousands relates to the "current" events.

Spence28,

Point of clarification, we aren't trying to colonize them, we're trying to kill them until they stop fighting. No boats full of colonists are departing our shores for the middle east.

The answer to dealing with the threat varies by threat. Russia and China have been threats for some time, the threat is measured and counteracted. So far so good. The threats rising form the middle east are different. There is no single answer to dealing with threats.

If you would like a simple solution to get the Arab/Muslim terrorists to leave us alone, Bin Laden already spelled out his terms clearly, all we have to do is agree to them. Get all US personnel out of the middle east and cut off all support for Israel. Europe pretty much has done this over the last few decades so they're aren't a big target right now.

The big problem to agreeing to Bin Laden's demands is that the US took it upon ourselves to defend Israel from its inception as a result of the attempted genocide by the Nazis during World War 2. We have done this through cash that has financed their military and allowed Israel to pull ahead and win the middle eastern arms race. This upcoming budget year the cash given in approaching $3 billion dollars. Without that money over the many years, Israel could never have financed their war machine and sustained an economy and eventually the surrounding arab nations would have wiped out Israel. Our money stopped this from happening and now the surrounding armies don't stand a chance against Israel's army or air force. We are blamed for this. In addition, Israel has its own weapons of mass destruction that will be used as a doomsday defense. (A byproduct of this arms race is the present attempt by arab nations to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons just to catch up with Israel and get the anhilation of the Jews back on schedule)

As for a friendly Iraqi government,of course we are trying to install one. We have propped up friendly governments throughout the middle east since the 1950s to try to establish some degree of stability. Iraq will be the most important of these "friendly" governments but not necessarily for the most obvious reasons. Some have worked better than others and all have had a problem with trickling down those good feelings to the arab street, as the media likes to call it. That same problem will exist in Iraq.

As for the homosexual man who wants to marry his partner, he is going to have a hard time finding that level of freedom since although we have separation of church and state, the country was still founded by Judeo-Christian beliefs and most of the elected officials are of various Christian denominations and they have biblical issues with the whole homosexual issue. I'm not sure what the muslim take on the issue would be in Iraq.

If we want to be everyone's friend again, we have to give up Israel.

your right cwilhelmi, i guess that don’t matter anymore being that 10 years has passed. And really they haven’t done anything really bad since then. Like I said we should pull out our troops and give them 25% of the U.S. gold in hopes they will somehow find it in their heart to forgive us for our evil and imposing ways. Maybe we should give them some of our nukes too, so they can become a super power, and nobody will ever mess with them again.

JUNE 04, 2003
Mass Graves of Children Found
[Herald Sun]
MASS grave containing the remains of 200 Kurdish children has been discovered in the northern Iraqi province of Kirkuk, the Kurdish newspaper Taakhi reported today.
"Citizens discovered on May 30 a communal grave close to Debs, in Kirkuk. But this is different from other mass graves discovered since the fall of Saddam Hussein's terrorist regime because it contains the remains of 200 child victims of the repression of the Kurdish uprising" in 1991, the paper said.
"Even dolls were buried with the children," it said.