tailgater
12 years ago

There are no benefits from dues. They're paid for in a lump sump hourly rate, to the union. If you're a member you get all of the benefits. The union pays the healthcare fund, and the pension fund. The employer only provides the hourly rate, which is why most owners are also members, to get the healthcare, and pension plans.

The employer provides no benefits, he pays the hourly rate, which then get divided between benefits and paycheck by the union.

They are not separate.

sd72 wrote:



Let's assume this is true.
Are you suggesting that the non-union worker will get healthcare and pensions without contributing?



sd72
12 years ago
The contribution is part of the base wage package. So, no. Lets say I make $60 an hour, and its divided up 31 to my check, 19 to pension, 10 to health.

Employer pays 60 to the union. They're done.

Union divides, and puts Monies where they go, to each persons individual accounts. Manages the health fund(self insured), invests the pension money's under ERISA mandated laws. Pays health claims on and on and on.

So of you join the union, you get the 60$ an hour. Which includes pay, health, pension.

Just don't have to pay dues to get it.
HockeyDad
12 years ago


have no clue about MI nor do most in here

teedubbya wrote:




Actually SD72 posted a link to the actual law. Pay attention.
teedubbya
12 years ago
I'm so confused
bloody spaniard
12 years ago

I'm so confused

teedubbya wrote:


'Cause you're trying to stir the pot in an affable, non-biased, and uninformed way.
Everybody has a purpose on this board. Embrace it.
HockeyDad
12 years ago
The ACLJ frequently receives questions regarding an employee’s First Amendment rights and their obligations to a labor union. As a general rule, no employee, whether in the private or public sector, can legally be required to join a union and pay full union dues. Yet, in many states, an employee can be forced to pay certain union dues or be fired.

Public Employees

Federal law guarantees employees of the federal government, including postal service employees, the right to refrain from union membership. 5 U.S.C. § 7102 (federal employees generally); 39 U.S.C. § 1209(c) (postal employees). A public employee who opts out of union membership is still covered by the collective bargaining agreements negotiated between the employer and the union. Thus, a public employee still reaps the benefits of the collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, vacations, pensions, health insurance) despite not joining the union. A public employee who is not a member of the union may not, however, be able to participate in union elections, meetings, votes, or other union activities. Unions may not discipline nonmember public employees.

Nonmember Public Employee Rights Regarding Union Dues for Political Activity

The Supreme Court in Abood v. Detroit Board of Education, 431 U.S. 209 (1977), held that public employees that elect not to join a union can only be required to pay a fee (i.e. “agency fee” or “fair share fee”). The agency fee equals the employee’s share of what the union can prove is related to collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment. The agency fee “must (1) be ‘germane’ to collective bargaining activity; (2) be justified by the government’s vital policy interest in labor peace and avoiding ‘free riders’; and (3) not significantly add to the burdening of free speech that is inherent in the allowance of an agency or union shop.” Lehnert v. Ferris Faculty Ass’n, 500 U.S. 507, 520 (1991). Activities that generally will not meet this test are political or ideological activities; lobbying not related to the collective bargaining agreement; public relations; illegal strikes; and “members only” benefits. See, e.g., Locke v. Karass, 555 U.S. 207 (2009); Lehnert v. Ferris Faculty Ass’n, 500 U.S. 507 (1991); Ellis v. BRAC, 466 U.S. 435 (1984); Abood, 431 U.S. 209; Pirlott v. NLRB, 522 F.3d 423 (D.C. Cir. 2008).

Generally, public union members do not have a right to prevent the use of their dues for political activities with which they disagree. Therefore, in order to prevent the political use of union dues, an employee may need to resign from the union. The Supreme Court has held that, when one elects not to join a union or resigns, the union must provide certain procedural safeguards, including: (1) an agency fee audit; (2) an opportunity to challenge the fee before an impartial decisionmaker; and (3) the right to escrow a challenged fee. Chi. Teachers Union v. Hudson, 475 U.S. 292, 310 (1986).

“Right to Work” States: State Employees’ Rights Regarding Union Membership

State or local government employees’ rights depend on the state for which the employee works. If the employee is a member of a “Right to Work” state, the employee has the right to refrain from union membership and cannot be required to pay any union fees unless the employee voluntarily joins the union. To date, twenty-two states and one territory have passed Right to Work legislation. These include Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Guam, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming. However, public employees in states that do not have “Right to Work” laws may be required to pay union dues, but cannot be required to pay any more than the agency fee as discussed above.

Private Employees

Nonmember Private Sector Rights Regarding Union Dues for Political Activity

Private employees, with the exception of those in the airline and railroad industries, see below, are covered by the National Labor Relations Act (the Act). 29 U.S.C. §§ 151–169. Under the Act, union members can resign their membership at any time for any purpose. Pattern Makers v. NLRB, 473 U.S. 95 (1985). Like public employees, private sector employees cannot be required to pay more than the agency fee.Commc’n Workers v. Beck, 487 U.S. 735 (1988). The Supreme Court has held that private sector employees who elect not to join a union but who are required to pay union dues as a condition of employment have a right under the Act to object and obtain a reduction of the compulsory union dues for those expenses used for purposes other than collective bargaining, contract administration, and grievance adjustment. Id.

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), which enforces the Act, has ruled that the Act does not require private unions to provide the same safeguards as public unions. Instead, the act requires unions to: (1) inform employees of the right to be nonmembers; (2) inform employees that nonmembers have the right to reduced fees; (3) provide sufficient information for employees to make an informed membership decision; (4) disclose procedures for filing objections; and (5) if employees object, inform them of the reduction percentage, the calculation basis, and the right to challenge these figures. Cal. Saw and Knife Works, 320 N.L.R.B. 224 (1995), aff’d 133 F.3d 1012 (7th Cir. 1998).

The Rights of Railway or Airline Employees

Private railway and airline employees are covered by the Railway Labor Act (RLA). 45 U.S.C. §§ 151-188. They are not protected by state “Right to Work” laws. See Railway Employees’ Dep’t v. Hanson, 351 U.S. 225 (1956). However, they cannot be forced to join a union unless the collective bargaining agreement contains a provision that requires union membership or dues as a requirement of employment. Regardless, railway and airline unions cannot compel nonmember employees to contribute dues toward a political cause. See Ellis v. BRAC, 466 U.S. 435 (1984). Nonmembers may object to their dues being used for anything other than those expenses directly related to bargaining and administrative costs. Int’l Ass’n of Machinists v. Street, 367 U.S. 740, 774-75 (1961).

Resigning Union Membership and Objecting to Dues for Political Activities

All union members, regardless of whether they work for a private employer or the government, have the right to resign their union membership. Abood, 431 U.S. 209 (public); Pattern Makers, 473 U.S. 95 (private). To resign from membership, the employee should send the union a written letter stating his/her intent to resign effective immediately and should object to any compulsory dues being used for political activities. It is important to note that automatic payroll deductions for union dues may not cease immediately upon objection. In some instances, the resignation may not be effective until the end of a certain time period authorized in the union agreement. Employees should check with their employer for when they may resign from automatic payroll deductions.

Nonmember employees retain employee benefits negotiated as part of their collective bargaining agreement (e.g., wages, vacations, pensions, health insurance), and unions are still required to fairly represent nonmembers in all collective bargaining matters. See, Vaca v. Sipes, 386 U.S. 171, 177 (1967); Ford Motor Co. v. Huffman, 345 U.S. 330, 337 (1953). However, by resigning membership or never joining the union, nonmember employees may not be able to participate in union elections, meetings, votes, or other union activities. Additionally, nonmembers are not subject to union rules and discipline.

Religious Objection and Redirecting Union Fees to Charity

Federal law, under Title VII, protects nearly all employees from religious discrimination. 42 U.S.C. § 2000e et seq (covering federal, state, and municipal employees, employees of private employers with fifteen or more employees, and employees who are members of a union with fifteen or more members). An employer or union covered by Title VII must reasonably accommodate an employee’s religious beliefs unless doing so would create an “undue hardship.” Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has interpreted “undue hardship” to mean even a minimal cost to the employer or union, or if the accommodation compromises workplace safety, decreases efficiency, infringes on other employees’ rights, or requires other employees to do more than their share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work. See TWA v. Hardison, 432 U.S. 63 (1977). Considering this low standard, employees should work diligently with their employer or union to find a solution that is the least inconvenient or costly to the employer or union.

However, “[w]hen an employee’s religious practices do not permit compliance with [paying dues to a union], the labor organization should accommodate the employee by not requiring the employee to join the organization and by permitting him or her to donate a sum equivalent to dues to a charitable organization.” 29 C.F.R. 1605.2(d)(2). Frequently, the collective bargaining agreement provides a list of acceptable charities from which religious objectors may choose. Although an employee may request that his/her dues go to a charity outside this list, ultimately, if the union has provided the employee a reasonable accommodation, the union is not obligated to allow the employee to donate to the charity of his/her choice. See Ansonia Board of Education v. Philbrook, 479 U.S. 60, 69 & n.6 (1986). If the union and employer do not, however, offer to accommodate an employee’s religious beliefs, the employee may file a charge with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission within 180 days of the discrimination.
sd72
12 years ago
It's ok. Said my peace, feel I have every fact covered. If this was a matlock episode, it be case closed.

Back to cigars.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

There are no benefits from dues. They're paid for in a lump sump hourly rate, to the union. If you're a member you get all of the benefits. The union pays the healthcare fund, and the pension fund. The employer only provides the hourly rate, which is why most owners are also members, to get the healthcare, and pension plans.

The employer provides no benefits, he pays the hourly rate, which then get divided between benefits and paycheck by the union.

They are not separate.

sd72 wrote:





The "benefit" the non-union members get from a union is the union and the employer have a collective bargaining agreement that covers all employees, union or not.

The union is getting money for the employer to provide benefits for everyone under the collective bargaining agreement. You seem to be under the impression that the employer will only pay the hourly money for the union employees but the union will have to provide the benefits to everyone. This is where you are incorrect.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

Imma not gonna provide the federal law but it is a fact with fed workers

teedubbya wrote:




The only benefit is collective bargaining. People are hearing "benefit" and thinking free healthcare.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

The contribution is part of the base wage package. So, no. Lets say I make $60 an hour, and its divided up 31 to my check, 19 to pension, 10 to health.

Employer pays 60 to the union. They're done.

Union divides, and puts Monies where they go, to each persons individual accounts. Manages the health fund(self insured), invests the pension money's under ERISA mandated laws. Pays health claims on and on and on.

So of you join the union, you get the 60$ an hour. Which includes pay, health, pension.

Just don't have to pay dues to get it.

sd72 wrote:




You also get the same $60 an hour if you don't join the union.

So what are the dues for again?
HockeyDad
12 years ago

It's ok. Said my peace, feel I have every fact covered. If this was a matlock episode, it be case closed.

Back to cigars.

sd72 wrote:




Your apology is accepted. I'm glad we were able to help you with your confusion.

(By the way, my son is a voluntary union member in a RTW state.)
sd72
12 years ago
Dues are for the hall, business agents, PACs. The staff that runs the union.

And stuff.

Ok. I'm back out. Thanks for accepting my apology.
Buckwheat
12 years ago

It's ok. Said my peace, feel I have every fact covered. If this was a matlock episode, it be case closed.

Back to cigars.

sd72 wrote:



Now you're talking Chit. WTF are you trying to do? Talking cigars here is the first step in getting kicked to the curb.

I was going to put the "Sarcasm Alert" smiley after this but even that would be sarcastic.
Abrignac
12 years ago
If all unions did was negotiate fair collective bargaining agreements, I'm sure there would be much less debate about the whole issue.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

Dues are for the hall, business agents, PACs. The staff that runs the union.

And stuff.

Ok. I'm back out. Thanks for accepting my apology.

sd72 wrote:




I want to join your union and get free pension and health benefits. How do I do that?
HockeyDad
12 years ago

If all unions did was negotiate fair collective bargaining agreements, I'm sure there would be much less debate about the whole issue.

Abrignac wrote:




The REAL corruption is in running the healthcare and pension funds. The employer just dumps money in and then the union staff get to have some fun.
sd72
12 years ago
You join the union at the hall. On mound road. Bring $320 and your in. $18 to start. Free everything else in 90 days. 3 years, boom, your a journeyman. If your lucky, you'll become a foreman, then a superintendent. Retire with 7200 a month, and a fund that offsets section 415, and SS. So you only keep making more.

Ok, ill be honest, dues pay for the thugs we use to beat up people. Mostly womens, who don't sew fast enough. Oh wait, well, keep it between us. Ok?
teedubbya
12 years ago
And representation in grievance appeals etc. as well as other employee disputes. it's not as simple as a quick read.
Abrignac
12 years ago

The REAL corruption is in running the healthcare and pension funds. The employer just dumps money in and then the union staff get to have some fun.

HockeyDad wrote:




Whoa nelly!

There is enough thievery to go around. It's not just the union staff screwing up healthcare.
HockeyDad
12 years ago

You join the union at the hall. On mound road. Bring $320 and your in. $18 to start. Free everything else in 90 days. 3 years, boom, your a journeyman. If your lucky, you'll become a foreman, then a superintendent. Retire with 7200 a month, and a fund that offsets section 415, and SS. So you only keep making more.

Ok, ill be honest, dues pay for the thugs we use to beat up people. Mostly womens, who don't sew fast enough. Oh wait, well, keep it between us. Ok?

sd72 wrote:




Don't I also have to like work or something to get the health and pension benefits? There has to be a catch.
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