Sorry, I ain't buying it. I lived on more than one carribean island. With the exception of a few small retreats for the very wealthy, all carribean islands suffer from extreme class divisions and poverty. Remember their history: they were populated by indigenous people till the Europeans "discovered" them. Then soon after transformed into slave plantations for various western European naval powers. These places have deep seeded histories of violence and extreme social division known as patronism, and in its most extreme form, slavery.

Cuba was poor before Castro ever made his mark. The brutal Bautista regime ruled over a society of sugar cane cutters barely subsisting, as well as rich casino operators run by organized crime bosses from the US. There was no embargo on crime. The claim that Castro somehow impoverished that Island is absurd. He impoverished the rich land barons, and naturally they were pissed they had to offshore their fortunes. Since them, like him or not, Castro has tried to enact, and has had some success with social reform, in terms of providing health care and education to the underclass, who under Bautista were treated worse than animals.

Castro's record of human rights is abyssimal however, he has ruled with an iron fist, stamping out dissent with jail and/or executions.

Still, the simplistic all good or all bad tropes of the social reforms he attempted are just that; much of the island's misfortune comes from not being able to trade with the mighty America. Mexico or Canada too would be choked if we slapped an embargo on them.

Nevertheless, Castro allowed Soviet nukes in the 60s and sealed the island's fate.

That people are unable to discuss the rudimentary facts of history without immediate moral vertigo seems childish to me, like the need for Santa Claus.

Venezuela too can be seen in a similar light. That country has been controlled by a petroleum oligarchy, while the underclasses have gone neglected. A populist (Chavez) comes along, takes some of the gains of a very tiny elite, and redistributes it the poor; of course Jose & Juana peon are going to look with a little more respect on a ruler like that than they would at some Bush like character who only caters to the wealthy. It's just common sense to me, not that I expect anyone to agree. You got your opinion, I got mine

Claiming Castro invented poverty in Cuba is just rubbish however. It was there waiting for him with bells on when he took power.

Let the name calling resume.

For the truly hard core, maybe we can seque to the history of Haiti & the Dominican republic for a related debate. Those "legal" DRs you smoke are rolled in factories protected by armed guards.

“Cuba was poor before Castro ever made his mark”

Yes, what were we thinking? That’s why most the cars in Havana are from the 50’s.

Fidel restored those cars to their former glory.

Long live Castro, the great antique collector.

Actually Doc, while there certainly was poverty in Cuba, Cuba was not like most of the other Islands in the Caribbean. There was a strong middle class and the highest standard of living in the Caribbean (BY FAR).

To compare Cuba and the Dominican Republic is absurd. There was a reason the mob and everyone else invested there. Castro sold his people a bill of goods then low and behold he turned into what he always was...

The fact that so many who were involved in the revolution turned on Castro and how Castro jailed or killed off these people is testament to his "skills" as a leader.

Sorry Doc, but you plain have it TOTATALY wrong on this one. You can spend your whole life in the caribbean, but Cuba in the 50's was a typical caribbean island is like comparing Haiti with the Cayman Islands today. Their was no comparison.

Well that's your opinion Topper, and I disagree based on my own review of the facts. The history can be found in the history books however, this didn't all come about last year.

However one interprets the history of Cuban US relations, let us all hope that the now useless embargo is put behind us soon for the benefit of the people of the United States, and for Cuba and her people too.

Lot of inertia to overcome however.

"my review of the facts"....LOL!!!!!!!

Topper, I remember Havana as the playground of America.....before there was a Vegas. What Class, What Culture. What an Atmosphere. Vegas still does not 'get it' (btw, just saw Andy Garcia's movie about the same...incredible!)

The genius improves his stance comparing it DR.

It beyond absurdity, Blasphemous.

Like he said, he has been to Tijuana.

You may be a weak debater jbu, but you're sure strong in calling people names in lieu of arguments.

Some of the "facts" are Haiti/DR, Puerto Rico, and Cuba, and Jamaica are the four largest islands in the Carribean and have a lot in common, including a of history sugar cane and tobacco agriculture. One of the main difference between these four large carribean islands is that Haiti/DR is split; one-third for the black people, the other two-thirds for the non-blacks: whereas both Cuba and Puerto Rico are more mixed societies, with Jamaica having a 90% black population.

Not only are Cuba and the Dominican Republic/Haiti close geographically, but also share a history of tobacco and sugar cane cultivation.

JBU,

You remember Cuba from the 40's? You must be really old.

You get your history from Andy Garcia movies?

I can't even tell what anyone is arguing about on this thread any more!

Before Castro, Cuba had a decent middle class, a decent upper class, a bunch of US investment, and a bunch of poor workers and peasants. Over half the land in Cuba was owned by US interests. The average standard of living was far worse than anything in the United States. Castro led the poor workers and peasants in the revolution.

The entire middle class and upper class were forced to leave at gunpoint or killed. This wave of departures make up the Cuban community in Miami that came over in the 1960s. They were the best and the brightest and reestablished themselves in Florida. (The Cuban community in Tampa dates to the 1920s and the cigar industry.) The old cars that Cuba is known for were the property of these 1960s exiles.

Castro rid himself of the upper and middle class because they were an immediate threat and rebuilt the entire country with just the peasants and replaced the upper and middle class with bureaucrats. Cuba has never recovered from losing these people. They have done quite well in Florida.

After the revolution, $1.8 billion US dollars in American investment wqas seized. With legally defined interest, the Cuban government owes approximately $20 billion dollars to various US investors. The embargo gets lifted only when this issue is resolved.

Cuba cannot be allowed to get away with asset seizure and anyone who buys Cuban cigars is anti-American and anti-capitalist.

Why do you keep saying that Castro owes you money ?

Freedom Tower

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=freedomtower-miami-fl-usa 

dp, we could have avoided most of this if you had just mentioned in the begining that they were geographical close. I hear you now, Jamaica, Cuba its like texas and louisiana.

Adroomi,

You may really like the AG movie, its called 'The Lost City'

Hey, have you seen Dumb & Dumber?

Jet, what HD is saying is very true, there is a sort of lien on Cuba.

Well...anyone care to comment on HD's post?

Didn't think so.

JBU,

Again, you MUST be really old if you remember Cuba from way back then, eh? And do you really get your Cuban history from Andy Garcia movies? Isn't he that foreigner that is against the war on terror?

Know what I think? I think you saw the movie, and it described Cuba from the perspective of one of the rich folks that HockeyDad speaks of above.

Now you think you know ALL about Cuba and have gotten yourself into an arguement with DrP about it, only to realize that HE knows more about it than YOU.

That's what I think.

Getting your history lessons from communist, anti-america, left-wing, actors is starting out with bad directions.....

Jetblasted,

I am one of those US investors that holds legal title to an asset that was seized by Castro illegally. US law not only has documented the original seized assets but allows for 6% interest to accrue. I'm owed about $10K from Castro but I know some 1960s exiles who are owed huge amounts. Cuban assets that are in the United States or somehow arrive in the United States can be seized to repay these outstanding debts. There's a buncha laws covering this stuff.

In a twisted sorta logic way, I now invest in Cuba via the Chinese oil companies that are drilling in the straits between Cuba and the Florida Keys.

I don't want to pry too deeply into your personal matters, but I am confused as to how you are an investor in something that was siezed . . .

All that was done in the 60's, right ?

jbu is really old Adroomi, she's senile. The US has no lein on Cuba, and Hockydad's a worse investor than me if he bought 1950s Cuban contract rights; think pre-embargo tobacco.

What's funniest is thinking there's an ontologically objective difference between Tex, Ark, Port, Arthur, & Ana. People from the south talk slow. People not from there are slow.

I think Jboo lives on multi dimensions and can time travel. You all should pay more attention!

Jetblasted,

The debts are all still perfectly valid. They don't just disappear because Castro waved his magic wand. The real estate titles, stocks, and bonds get passed down from generation to generation and even get sold, at pennies on the dollar due to the likelihood of collecting. Cuba actually reached settlements with every country but one that was involved with seized assets, payments were made, and trade was restored. Most seized assets were US owned or 1960s Cuban exile owned.

Here's a tidbit as to why all these debts are still out there. When assets are seized by a foreign government, the assets cannot be written off as a bad debt on one's US income taxes. Since nobody can write off the debt, it is all still carried on the books with hopes of repayment. If you owned a $50K house in Cuba that was seized in the 1960s, you're likely owed about a million dollars even though there is an army base there now but your deed is still valid and the property was seized illegally under Cuban and international law so why not keep that deed in a safe deposit box somewhere?

Cuba doesn't have the $20 billion to settle up.

Dont be silly Adroomi. It’s the landscape that I was referring to, and they did a fabulous job of recreating the ‘scene’. Palpable even to an IL farmer, and that’s good cinematography. We don’t need Andy Garcia to tell us there is trouble in paradise, we get daily reminders in inner tubes. I have long been an admirer of Cuba, my earliest memories are made up of it.

I never had an argument with anyone that thinks there are more similarities between Jamaica and Cuba, than differences.

And No HD has no point, pepperhill is right Cuba was poorer before Fidel, that’s why there was a revolution.

Speaking of dumb actors, wonder if dumb folks ever contemplate that they are not intellectual?

If you want a dialogue, why don’t you not respond post #62

I have only my own sphincter watching my back on these posts.