tailgater

"Those statements you refer to could have come from any average white guy back in the early '60s."

that's when i heard them the first time.

"Today, we don't need laws that discriminate in much the same way communities did back then. We don't need Uncle Sam to force fit Equality or Diversity"

i heard that in the 60's also.

i have a few friends who could not get "their" business to grow, until "they" were allowed to bid on government contracts. allowed is the optimum word. "they" were able to provide the lowest bid and completed "their" contracts better then expected, because "they" knew people were waiting for "them" to fail.

prior to the equal rights amendment, "they" had "their" bids rejected. i wonder why.

"We don't need Uncle Sam to force fit Equality or Diversity."

you might want to discuss this with people that have been helped.

when i was a kid, my mother had to wear a cross in order to be interviewed for a job.

you see my friend, the world is a different place then you imagine.

Rick,
If my bid on a government contract gets rejected because they choose the minority owned company, how does that help ANYONE? Let's assume my bid offered equal product at a slight discount for the sake of argument. Because that is what we are talking about.
A contract should be rewarded to the best bid, regardless of owner status, not because of it.
Are you saying that without quotas, that the government would discriminate against minorities? Are you that fickle?

Today, in 2003, anybody who relies on government intervention via quotas is a flat out LOSER.

Get your head out of the '60s. Bathrooms and busses are not segregated. Discrimination is an offense punishable by law. But more than that, it is frowned upon by joe public.

Bogus laws are bogus laws, no matter how you try to justify them. Retribution is for the weak. If someone can't make something out of their life, there is NO ONE to blame but themself.

I hope I'm not being too vague...

I have a friend, in the highway construction buisness. He found a way for the quotas to work for him. He signed 51% of his buisness, into his wifes name. He now has minority status, and gets jobs he otherwise wouldn't. A thinking man can do just fine with quotas in place. The stupid ones, well if they are too stupid to work around the regs, I don't want them to build my highway.
I know this is just one industry, but there are loopholes in all of these quota systems, just learn to work them.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

tailgater - "Rick, If my bid on a government contract gets rejected because they choose the minority owned company, how does that help ANYONE?"

Equality laws were put into place for a reason. You don't think there are still racists who would still bick the white guy rather than the better bid.

"Are you saying that without quotas, that the government would discriminate against minorities? Are you that fickle?"

Just an observation, but whenever I see an election campeign on tv, it's 2 old white guys going against each other. I wonder what their racial views were in the 60's.

Lim,
For a Canuck, you're awfully sour.

Because there are bigots and predjudice still exists does NOT mean that quotas will achieve either of their intended results. Namely, to eliminate discrimination and create fairness.

The socialistic land to my north is a nice place. But I wouldn't want to live there.
Heck, you guys are a whisper away from dividing in half.

I have faith in Americans that you obviously do not. I am not so naive as to suggest that predjudice is over. But don't you be so naive as to think that racist laws and regulations can eliminate it.

And quotas are nothing short of racism.

Homebrew,
"too stupid to work around the regulations"
????
What are you suggesting?
I'd like to know before I respond.

Tailgater,
I meant no offence. There are always ways around the regs. It may be as simple as signing controlling interest, on paper mind you, to your wife, then your buisness is minority owned, women are still considered minorites. The reference to stupid peolpe, only refers to those who can't see the forest through the trees. Try and think outside the box. There is a solution to every problem, sometimes it's just a matter of exploring options that the average person would never think of. I guess I misspoke, not "stupid people", just average.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

Dave,
I would disagree. You should not have to "work around the regs". This is simply working around the law, regardless of how bad the law may be. A question of ethics come into play when doing so. It can also be self-defeating of quotas put into place. I don't believe in quotas but by working around them it continues to perpetuate the unbalanced situation that quotas supposedly fix. Let's get to the root of the problem, fix it and eliminate the need for quotas and affirmative action.

John

Hey jgjam,
I didn't say it was right, just said there is a way around everything.
Later
Dave (A.K.A. Homebrew)

Dave,

So true....

John

Just like there's a way around paying state taxes on cigars!! Or even paying retail for that matter...

If women are minorities, why are there so many of them?

tailgater

you started out asking an excellent question and then lost your own argument by telling me whee my head was and to get it out. when you do that, my natural response would be, well you get your head out of your ass, and we are no longer discusing the original subject of affirmative action, we will spend our time thinking of places the other guy's head should be. back to the debate

"A contract should be rewarded to the best bid, regardless of owner status, not because of it." you are absolutely right, correct and any other word that says, "you speak the truth." however i said

"i have a few friends who could not get "their" business to grow, until "they" were allowed to bid on government contracts. allowed is the optimum word."
minorities were systematically excluded by the powers that were in charge. now weight must be given to those who were excluded. how long that extra special assisstance should last, i don't know. maybe it should stop now, maybe it should stop in 11 months and 6 days. if you do not recognize that there was a problem, then you can't accept their might still be one.

you see, we probably do agree on everything about this except, perhaps, for the time frame.

cwilhelmi

are you suggesting i don't have to send all my out of state purchase receipts to the franchise tax board so they can tell me how much to send them for taxes?

Rick, back to the debate, I'm Irish (by ancestry). What do the British owe me? In 11 months 6 days, will you say no more? 11 years? 11 decades? 11 centuries? Don’t know? Why not now?

ROBBY

that's the meat and potatoes of it. how long? i don't know.

incidentally my jewish father was from county cork. and he taught me to say pug a mahon. i don't know if i spelled it or if it means anything.

there is a great book out written by pete hamill, a mick, as he calls himself, from the bronx, who is so catholic he is not suppossed to look down at girl's wearing patent leather shoes.

the book is called "forever" and it traces the irish from the old country to the new lace curtain irish in america. enjoy it.

"that's the meat and potatoes of it. how long? i don't know."

So it's "possible" that the meat and potatoE's have already been digested? And what's being discussed is excrement? That’s my point/question. You yourself at least a tacit supporter of this policy are unsure as to whether or not it should be continued.

That’s been my point from the get go. Yes, there was injustice. Yes there was discrimination; yes steps have been taken to remedy this.

Time to call a truce… The field is level for all who wish to compete…

We need to judge people as individuals, not as members of groups. That IS the ultimate goal, let’s conceive it, let’s achieve it.

tailgater - "Lim, For a Canuck, you're awfully sour".

Not sour, As far as my country splitting, there is a history lesson for you below.

tailgater says, "The socialistic land to my north is a nice place. But I wouldn't want to live there".

Well equality exists here; we have a quota system as well. If you read my post from before, I said I'm for the good that comes out of Affirmative action, I don't think it's fair that new immigrant get to take advantage. It's the same in Canada. I do believe that the natives deserve every advantage they can get, we the white man caused many of their problems and these problems have compounded over the years. The same is true for the Natives and black of America. I am not so naive to believe that 30 years of progressive equality will fix the problems in society that have compounded for hundreds of years, so that's a social view of a guy who lives in a free country that has a bit more off a social system than you.

Buy the way, I've been a business owner since I was 25 years old and my life was Sh@# for the first few years that I started. I'm living THE NORTH AMERICAN dream that freedom allows. Our societies are not very different; the difference is our freedom comes with a bit more social responsibility. I'm in a 40% marginal tax rate, and I'm not complaining one bit. I live in a pretty great place. How about you?

tailgater, I'm not going to say the USA isn't a great place to live and I'm not going to say that I would never want to live there. When I read your posts it makes me wonder if you've spent much time out of the U.S. My countries reputation speaks for itself. We have been voted the #1 country to live in more than any other country on the planet. But I'm not going to ram this point down people’s throats, unless I’m provoked. It's just something we’re proud of, but you won't here us yapping our mouths off that we're the best and you all wish you we're like us. That’s what keeps us out of trouble and gives us the respect we enjoy from the rest of the world.

Oh except for Hockey, sorry we're the best. Per capita, if your Canadian your more than 20x more likely to make the NHL. But you’re the best at Baseball, although it was a little tough for you to beat our Toronto Blue Jays (made up of mostly American players) in the 90's.

History lesson.

Separation has not been a serious issue since 1982 and this year Québec is celebrating the 25th year of language rights and distinct society status. Because of this, 92% of Québec's population speak French as a first language and their heritage is safe. Also the party Quebecois has just lost the Provincial leadership for the first time since the 70’s. The party Quebecois was the main motivator for separation. It’s a dead issue now.

This does not stop western Canada from saying screw them, the English conquered them, so be it. Actually the English didn't. It was a brokered deal by the governors of both sides to stop the blood shed and live in co-existence. Had the French been supplied with troupes they desperately needed, you would be living below France. Unfortunately for the French of New France, France itself was at war with Britain and could not afford the extra troupes. Québecers still resent that, including myself. this is why we in the past recognized the Queen as our monarchy, while retaining our French culture, language and religion. Québec is also more than 90% Catholic

Sorry for the long reply to tailgater, but I was forced to settle a little foreign relations.

Sorry I'm with Rick on this whole issue. Just because he doesn't know the time frame for which reverse discrimination should be phased out doesn't make is views less valid. I don't know either. What he is saying is that he doesn't have all the answers as some from this board feel they do. If the benefit of the doubt lies with a Quota system a little while longer, I don't think it will do more bad than good, except of course for those who take it personally.

Discrimination hundreds of years, the reverse, less than 30. I think what people fail to see is that the social issues that exist because of the past have compounded for several generations. It needs to be fixed so that those being affected by it can give back and have no excuses.

In past posts I have used my nations social values simply as an example of how equality works. We have a fraction of the Discrimination, and as a result enjoy a fraction of the crime of other nations who are less tolerant

cwilhelmi - makes a great point that not just minorities but all the underprivileged should be given a leg up. Trust me most of the will not take advantage of it, so not to many white kids from good neighborhoods should be effected.

As I said before rather than giving points for being a Minority, create a point system which is based on the neighborhood, not all will take advantage of this system, but the ones that do will make the world a better place and hopefully make the projects less populated.

Remember we are all citizens of the world, no better, no worse. It shames me to see the people of North America not use the advantages that exist over other nations. I think it's worse that most who do, don't give back.

lim, i'm going to give you a turd for lunch, but I'm not going to call it a turd. I'm going to call it a hot dog, does that make it any more edible?

And since I couldn't get anyone else to answer, why don't you give it a try. What do the British owe me for repressing my ancestors?

Finally, what if someone is a mix? Only 1 minority parent? Are they given 50%? If they have offspring with another non-minority, is their advantage reduced to 25%?

One of the main reasons people are turned off by politics are that politicians lie, manipulate, obfuscate, etc… The suggestion that they should take this turd and call it something else in an effort to make it more palatable, to me makes it even more offensive. If they’re going to bend me over, take money from my innocent son and give it to someone else who I have not wronged, then they need to call it what it is and let people know they’re being screwed.

Oh by the way, how long does it take to get an MRI in that great country?