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Well Ferguson is getting a little out of hand....
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ZRX1200 Offline
#151 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 9:55 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
Mellow
DrMaddVibe Offline
#152 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 10:03 AM EST
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Posts: 55,444
Bored
DrafterX Offline
#153 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 10:08 AM EST
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Think
teedubbya Offline
#154 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 10:11 AM EST
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Speak to the hand

we need a self pleasure smiley
ZRX1200 Offline
#155 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:02 AM EST
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[teedubya]
ZRX1200 Offline
#156 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:02 AM EST
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Posts: 60,615
Didn't work
victor809 Offline
#157 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:07 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
ZRX1200 wrote:
Teedubya will be here soon (possibly Victor too) to insinuate that those folks are racists.


Somebody's a racist.


There... feel accomplished now? :)
victor809 Offline
#158 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:18 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Cigar2014 wrote:

Dont you you honestly think thats because "everyone" knows the majority of crimes commited in this country now matter were you live is committed by black offenders..and anyone who says this not true..or makes excuses for there crimes is just as quilty! thats just my honest thoughts! at least here we I live I dont know about were the rest of you live cant speak for that

Cigar


So, your point is that because a majority of crimes are perpetrated by blacks, that all blacks should have a different experience during routine traffic stops?

Pretty much all mass murders or serial killers are white. Do you think police should assume that all whites are serial killers while pulling them over?

HockeyDad Offline
#159 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:30 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
I got pulled over once on the way to Whole Foods. The officer was quite polite and we discussed and compared our invisible backpacks of privilege. he pulled me over to let me know I had a little bit of mud on the right rear quarter panel and I should maybe swing by a car wash and get it taken care of but he didn't write me a fix-it ticket for it or anything. He even told me I was safe to drive 10 mph over the speed limit no problem.

I feel Ferguson's pain.
ZRX1200 Offline
#160 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:32 AM EST
Joined: 07-08-2007
Posts: 60,615
Now we know why Michael Jackson did what he did and it worked, he got away with it!
HockeyDad Offline
#161 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:34 AM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
victor809 wrote:
So, your point is that because a majority of crimes are perpetrated by blacks, that all blacks should have a different experience during routine traffic stops?

Pretty much all mass murders or serial killers are white. Do you think police should assume that all whites are serial killers while pulling them over?




I don't know if that would work because serial killers are like 1 in a million and black criminals are like...I'll have to check the stat but I think it is less than that.
victor809 Offline
#162 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 11:53 AM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
HockeyDad wrote:
I don't know if that would work because serial killers are like 1 in a million and black criminals are like...I'll have to check the stat but I think it is less than that.


But it totally would work. If we treated every white person pulled over as a suspected serial killer, we would have close to a 100% conviction rate on serial killers! That would be AWESOME!

The point being they are still the minority of black people. Total incarceration rates in the US still are only 1% of the total population. To treat an entire race based on the statistics of a minority of the race is... well I believe the word is stereotyping. :)

Which is kind of what I was trying to point out.
HockeyDad Offline
#163 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:15 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
victor809 wrote:
But it totally would work. If we treated every white person pulled over as a suspected serial killer, we would have close to a 100% conviction rate on serial killers! That would be AWESOME!



You could treat them as a suspected serial killer but the overwhelming odds are they are not. The odds would be against you that you even caught one serial killer this way. Seems like a waste of resources...
delta1 Offline
#164 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:42 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,794
There's a big difference between being "protected and served" vs being "policed." I've experienced both.

Part of the disparity in crime rates among minority populations is due to the deployment of police resources and the types of crimes being targeted for prosecution. Disorderly conduct, prostitution, possession of relatively small amounts of marijuana and possession and use of crack or other forms of cocaine are examples. Lots of that happens in the beach cities, where crime rates/arrests are low, compared to the inner cities.
HockeyDad Offline
#165 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:54 PM EST
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,135
delta1 wrote:
There's a big difference between being "protected and served" vs being "policed." I've experienced both.

Part of the disparity in crime rates among minority populations is due to the deployment of police resources and the types of crimes being targeted for prosecution. Disorderly conduct, prostitution, possession of relatively small amounts of marijuana and possession and use of crack or other forms of cocaine are examples. Lots of that happens in the beach cities, where crime rates/arrests are low, compared to the inner cities.



Sounds like we need to build more beaches in inner cities.
DrafterX Offline
#166 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
HockeyDad wrote:
Sounds like we need to build more beaches in inner cities.




or Cabrini Greens on the shorelines... Mellow
delta1 Offline
#167 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:56 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,794
HockeyDad wrote:
Sounds like we need to build more beaches in inner cities.



Be easier to move the inner cities to the beach...



edit: Drafter quicker on the draw...
gryphonms Offline
#168 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 12:59 PM EST
Joined: 04-14-2013
Posts: 1,983
Make sure they each get a wave machine or the effect won't be the same.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#169 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:21 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/missouri-cop-was-badly-beaten-before-shooting-michael-brown-says-source/

Darren Wilson, the Ferguson, Mo., police officer whose fatal shooting of Michael Brown touched off more than a week of demonstrations, suffered severe facial injuries, including an orbital (eye socket) fracture, and was nearly beaten unconscious by Brown moments before firing his gun, a source close to the department's top brass told FoxNews.com.

“The Assistant (Police) Chief took him to the hospital, his face all swollen on one side,” said the insider. “He was beaten very severely.”

According to the well-placed source, Wilson was coming off another case in the neighborhood on Aug. 9 when he ordered Michael Brown and his friend Dorain Johnson to stop walking in the middle of the road because they were obstructing traffic. However, the confrontation quickly escalated into physical violence, the source said..

“They ignored him and the officer started to get out of the car to tell them to move," the source said. "They shoved him right back in, that’s when Michael Brown leans in and starts beating Officer Wilson in the head and the face.

The source claims that there is "solid proof" that there was a struggle between Brown and Wilson for the policeman’s firearm, resulting in the gun going off – although it still remains unclear at this stage who pulled the trigger. Brown started to walk away according to the account, prompting Wilson to draw his gun and order him to freeze. Brown, the source said, raised his hands in the air, and turned around saying, "What, you're going to shoot me?"

At that point, the source told FoxNews.com, the 6 foot, 4 inch, 292-pound Brown charged Wilson, prompting the officer to fire at least six shots at him, including the fatal bullet that penetrated the top of Brown's skull, according to an independent autopsy conducted at the request of Brown's family.

Wilson suffered a fractured eye socket in the fracas, and was left dazed by the initial confrontation, the source said. He is now "traumatized, scared for his life and his family, injured and terrified" that a grand jury, which began hearing evidence on Wednesday, will "make some kind of example out of him," the source said.
DrafterX Offline
#170 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:25 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Sounds about right.... you can't just make that stuff up... Mellow
opelmanta1900 Offline
#171 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:33 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
well maybe you can't... I have a pretty good imagination...
delta1 Offline
#172 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:38 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,794
Awful truth is that being a police officer in the U.S. is a very hazardous job. More cops are being injured and killed in the line of duty each year. Takes a special person to be a good cop.
victor809 Offline
#173 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
delta1 wrote:
Awful truth is that being a police officer in the U.S. is a very hazardous job. More cops are being injured and killed in the line of duty each year. Takes a special person to be a good cop.


This is true.

That being said, the above stuff should be pretty easy to support.
Someone should be able to find gunpowder residue on or around MB if he was struggling with the gun when it went off. Additionally, if he's beating the guy to near unconsciousness, there should be some bruising on his hands... at least I would think so.

But if the beating was that severe, how was he able to get like 6 shots on target? He must have really good firearm training. I think average cops during a conflict have like a miserable 50% hit rate or something like that.... this guy has better than that even after being beaten to "near unconsciousness"?


I don't think either side is telling us the truth.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#174 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 2:54 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
ya, the "near unconsciousness" comment really stuck out for some reason as being very unlikely true... I mean, how do you measure the closeness of losing consciousness?

It does seem if the suspect was charging the officer and got close enough, five or six shots on target would be relatively easy for most trained people I would think...
delta1 Offline
#175 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:07 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,794
That account does seem suspect, given the distance between the PD SUV, which remained where the original confrontation occurred, and the location of the dead body. This scenario suggests Brown kept charging after being hit 4-5 times, then lowering his head before being felled by the fatal shot and that the cop who feared for his life kept advancing on the threat without cover. Really???
Abrignac Offline
#176 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:18 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Firing rounds at a stationary paper target is relatively easy. When that same target is moving forward at you at the speed at which an average person runs it gets a bit more difficult. When you're disoriented from a severe head injury and the target is running towards you, arms and head moving side to side and/or up and down as such when a person runs I would suspect is infinitely more difficult.
teedubbya Offline
#177 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:21 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
sometimes I can't even hit the toilet when I am drinking.
opelmanta1900 Offline
#178 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:24 PM EST
Joined: 01-10-2012
Posts: 13,954
I suspect a second shooter... probably on the grassy knoll...
DrafterX Offline
#179 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:27 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Think
maybe the cop was carrying an Uzi... 6 rounds is a pretty short burst.. Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#180 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:32 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I heard he had a 50 cal machine gun
Abrignac Offline
#181 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:33 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
It's interesting that the media was all over the story that a white cop shot an unarmed black youth. Now that information is coming out that the officer was severely beaten, news reports from Ferguson are no longer getting top billing.

Of CNN, the New York Times, NBC, Fox and CBS, only Fox and ABC have marquee website stories that report this. Governor Nixon is still calling for a vigorous prosecution though.
victor809 Offline
#182 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
opelmanta1900 wrote:
I suspect a second shooter... probably on the grassy knoll...


That must be where his partner was....
DrafterX Offline
#183 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:34 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
teedubbya wrote:
I heard he had a 50 cal machine gun



no way man... I heard it was 54 cal Enfield muzzle loader.... Mellow
victor809 Offline
#184 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
It's interesting that the media was all over the story that a white cop shot an unarmed black youth. Now that information is coming out that the officer was severely beaten, news reports from Ferguson are no longer getting top billing.

Of CNN, the New York Times, NBC, Fox and CBS, only Fox and ABC have marquee website stories that report this. Governor Nixon is still calling for a vigorous prosecution though.


I think that's more to do with our short attention spans. I don't think there's been a story since the "24 hour news cycle" phenomenon started which had much in the way of legs past a week.
delta1 Offline
#185 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:35 PM EST
Joined: 11-23-2011
Posts: 28,794

opelmanta1900 wrote:
I suspect a second shooter... probably on the grassy knoll...




DrafterX wrote:
Think
maybe the cop was carrying an Uzi... 6 rounds is a pretty short burst.. Mellow





d'oh!
Abrignac Offline
#186 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:36 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
CNN is running a story about a column by an officer who writes that if you want to be safe don't challenge an officer, but wait and lodge a complaint later.
teedubbya Offline
#187 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:37 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
Abrignac wrote:
It's interesting that the media was all over the story that a white cop shot an unarmed black youth. Now that information is coming out that the officer was severely beaten, news reports from Ferguson are no longer getting top billing.

Of CNN, the New York Times, NBC, Fox and CBS, only Fox and ABC have marquee website stories that report this. Governor Nixon is still calling for a vigorous prosecution though.



Has it been verified? sounds to me like it was a source close to a source... etc. CNN has been reporting the anonomous "josie" or whatever that called in to a talk radio program that supposedly had the whole story from the cops point of view. They've reported that the last few days (which was odd since you have no idea of the source) and it became old news.
jetblasted Offline
#188 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
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victor. Why do you assume that a professional who uses & trains with firearms would have difficulty hitting a moving target 6 times ?

I think it's highly likely that an officer of the law could accomplish this & I don't question it at all. Even in pain with one eye closed.

Ever see the pop-up targets of bad guy vs mom w/ baby? This officer should be commended, instead of vilified.
victor809 Offline
#189 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:38 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
CNN is running a story about a column by an officer who writes that if you want to be safe don't challenge an officer, but wait and lodge a complaint later.


I saw some article posted which was basically: "I'm a police officer, if I stop you then you should shut up and do what I say because I'm probably right". I don't think that article was helping the situation....
victor809 Offline
#190 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:40 PM EST
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Posts: 23,866
jetblasted wrote:
victor. Why do you assume that a professional who uses & trains with firearms would have difficulty hitting a moving target 6 times ?

I think it's highly likely that an officer of the law could accomplish this & I don't question it at all. Even in pain with one eye closed.

Ever see the pop-up targets of bad guy vs mom w/ baby? This officer should be commended, instead of vilified.


I was going off of statistics. I can dig up the article, but cops in shoot outs don't hit 100% of the time... its closer to 50%.
victor809 Offline
#191 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:43 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
I was off.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Police hit dogs at about 55%
Police hit moving people at about 35%

For him to have 6 bullets on target when the guy is moving... either he fired a lot of shots (I don't believe we know how many were shot at this time) or he is a significantly above average shot under pressure.
DrafterX Offline
#192 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:46 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
OhMyGod
DrafterX Offline
#193 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:47 PM EST
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Posts: 98,555
gotta remember the target didn't really move and kept getting bigger..... Mellow
Abrignac Offline
#194 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:49 PM EST
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Posts: 17,278
victor809 wrote:
I was going off of statistics. I can dig up the article, but cops in shoot outs don't hit 100% of the time... its closer to 50%.



I'd say you're in the ball park if you're referring to the shoot out as a whole. In terms of rounds fired that hit, I'd say that is much lower. Not that it's very relevant, but I recall reading that only about 1:1,000,000 rounds expended in the Vietnam War actually hit the target. Adrenaline is a mo Also, don't forget the thumbtack theorem which states that in certain situations your butthole gets so tight you couldn't drive a thumbtack in it with a sledgehammer.
victor809 Offline
#195 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:52 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
I'd say you're in the ball park if you're referring to the shoot out as a whole. In terms of rounds fired that hit, I'd say that is much lower. Not that it's very relevant, but I recall reading that only about 1:1,000,000 rounds expended in the Vietnam War actually hit the target. Adrenaline is a mo Also, don't forget the thumbtack theorem which states that in certain situations your butthole gets so tight you couldn't drive a thumbtack in it with a sledgehammer.


Yeah.
A lot of studies have found that your average person, even trained military, is particularly bad at shooting people. At clinch time, a lot of people miss (or in war, they found people intentionally discharged into the air). Your average person doesn't like killing other people, and their aim indicates that. There have been a ton of studies about this (mainly because the military wants to find ways of getting people over that problem... you know... so they stop wasting bullets.)... :)
jetblasted Offline
#196 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:57 PM EST
Joined: 08-30-2004
Posts: 42,595
HockeyDad wrote:
I got pulled over once on the way to Whole Foods. The officer was quite polite and we discussed and compared our invisible backpacks of privilege. he pulled me over to let me know I had a little bit of mud on the right rear quarter panel and I should maybe swing by a car wash and get it taken care of but he didn't write me a fix-it ticket for it or anything. He even told me I was safe to drive 10 mph over the speed limit no problem.

I feel Ferguson's pain.


I just tell local law enforcement that my family have been close friends with every sheriff in the county for the last 70+ years, with facts & stories & memories to prove it. It also helps to know a majority of current & past deputies by name. Attending fundraisers & political rallies for law enforcement helps, as does being a member of the same Church as the local sheriff. All the above results in a wave, a friendly slap on the back, a good natured laugh, and a "how's your mom & them", enforce being sent on my way.

Being an upstanding & law abiding member of society & the community goes a long way, too.

Personally, if the people rioting burn that city to the ground, I won't lose sleep over it.

But, they'll still cry foul, regardless of the mountain of evidence against Trayvon Brown.
Abrignac Offline
#197 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 3:59 PM EST
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
victor809 wrote:
Yeah.
A lot of studies have found that your average person, even trained military, is particularly bad at shooting people. At clinch time, a lot of people miss (or in war, they found people intentionally discharged into the air). Your average person doesn't like killing other people, and their aim indicates that. There have been a ton of studies about this (mainly because the military wants to find ways of getting people over that problem... you know... so they stop wasting bullets.)... :)


For the most part, a patrol officer is a pretty accurate shooter. They undergo lots of training and if P.O.S.T. qualified (I can't imagine an officer on patrol that is not) they must prove proficiency on an annual basis. They are trained to account for their rounds. In addition, they are trained not to point a weapon at anything that they do not intend to fire upon.

In addition to the annual routine of shooting at paper targets for qualification, some agencies also have one or more annual scenario based live fire training regiments. Contrary to popular belief, today's LEO isn't some good old boy who's been handed a gun, patted on the ass an told to go get'em Tiger.
DrafterX Offline
#198 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 4:01 PM EST
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,555
Abrignac wrote:
Contrary to popular belie,f today's LEO isn't some good old boy who's been handed a gun, patted on the ass an told to go get'em Tiger.



in the city maybe.. I know this happens in rural areas... Mellow
teedubbya Offline
#199 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 08-14-2003
Posts: 95,637
I haven't really seen a mountain of evidence for either side yet. That's when I'll start drawing conclusions (as if it matters)

The police response has been sketchy since however. And why do folks **** in their mess kit.


We won the super bowl lets destroy the town!
victor809 Offline
#200 Posted: Wed, Aug 20 2014, 4:03 PM EST
Joined: 10-14-2011
Posts: 23,866
Abrignac wrote:
For the most part, a patrol officer is a pretty accurate shooter. They undergo lots of training and if P.O.S.T. qualified (I can't imagine an officer on patrol that is not) they must prove proficiency on an annual basis. They are trained to account for their rounds. In addition, they are trained not to point a weapon at anything that they do not intend to fire upon.

In addition to the annual routine of shooting at paper targets for qualification, some agencies also have one or more annual scenario based live fire training regiments. Contrary to popular belief, today's LEO isn't some good old boy who's been handed a gun, patted on the ass an told to go get'em Tiger.


I don't doubt their training at all. My point is simply that even well trained police officers have a pretty low hit ratio in actual shoot-outs with criminals (who I assume probably have even lower hit-ratios)... I'm surprised that this guy got 6 on target given the circumstances they are claiming he was under.
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